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The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

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Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#101

Post by stinkytaco »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #78
stinkytaco wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>By itself, speeding is a victimless crime: if you hit something or someone with your car, you were doing something wrong besides just speeding. This is so untrue I don't even know where to begin. The number of accidents that could be prevented if people would just slow down is amazing. Icy, rainy, foggy... going too fast is by far the most common cause of accidents. http://ec.europa.eu/transport/wcm/road_safety/erso…

Icy, rainy, foggy... going too fast is by far the most common cause of accidents. Your mistake is in confusing "going too fast for conditions" with "going too fast for a sign at the side of the road." The relevant laws are more complex than your beliefs. Failure to maintain appropriate speed for conditions does indeed get people killed, but it has nothing to do with "speeding." Under the wrong conditions, even drivin…

Considering all anyone has done is make assertations with no proof, I will take the view of the many traffic engineers I work with over your so called "trivial to find" examples, none of which you or anyone else has been able to provide or prove. I'm sure your expert driving skills keep you very safe, but I will count myself lucky that the 17 year old that cruises down my street at 45 MPH despite his percieved ability got pulled over.

Incidentally, do you propose that "too fast for conditions" be the law? I find that surprising, considering how much discretionary power that would put in the hands of the government.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#102

Post by stinkytaco »

nitrogen wrote: post #93
graue wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collision rate isn't what we want to minimize; fatality rate is. And the odds of pedestrian death in a collision are about 5% at 20mph, 45% at 30mph, and 85% at 40mph. Source: http://humantransport.org/sidewalks/SpeedKills.htm As a side note, when claiming statistics support your point of view, please cite those statistics. Keeps everyone honest. Thanks.

I don't think anyone here wants to raise speed limits in pedestrian-heavy areas. Talking about pedestrian fatalities is not constructive to an argument about freeway speed limits.

It's not an argument about freeway speed limits, but about speed limits in general and in principle. I don't know where "freeway" was introduced as a limiter.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#103

Post by stinkytaco »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #80
icebraining wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments have many powers besides cracking down on criminals, that speed limits are designed to make criminals is a baseless claim, and bureaucrats in Washington, DC don't decide them - federal speed limits were repealed in 1995. In particular, the speed limit on West Texas are set by the Texas Department of Transportation.

In particular, the speed limit on West Texas are set by the Texas Department of Transportation. Not when I was driving there, it wasn't. (This is called "showing my age," for the benefit of those who haven't had the opportunity to catch themselves doing that yet.) Governments have many powers besides cracking down on criminals What are some examples, apart from foreign policy where the basis of power is ultimately mi…

Examples?

Cleaning streets, putting out fires, educating, infrastructure...

As someone who's spent some time in places with no government I will say there are many examples, but punishing criminals is one I've become fond of.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#104

Post by dandelany »

belorn wrote: post #99
esonderegger wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DRM argument for piracy is a bit of a straw man. Music hasn't been sold with DRM for over three years, but it still makes up a sizable portion of The Pirate Bay's offerings. You could say that musicians are being tyrannical by choosing to distribute their recordings in the way that maximizes their profit instead of choosing to give it away. I would reply that some people do choose to give away their work. I'm hap…

Expecting people to know and care about DRM, is like expecting people to read and understand the Table of contents in food. The Hambuger seller: 1. A picture of an Hamburger $4 2.Sale, with just a tiny bit of arsnic in it, $8. Sale, Arsnic free, for maybe $12. With this hypothetical Humburger product, most people will still pick option 2, not thinking about reading the table of content or understanding the effect ars…

> DRM is by its definition a program, created to disrupt computer operation and gain access to private computer systems. This is an identical definition to that of malware. That DRM is indistinguishable from Rootkits should make it obvious to society as a sign that DRM is harmful.

I think you must be thinking of a different DRM. DRM means Digital Rights Management, and describes any technology that inhibits uses of digital content that are not desired or intended by the content provider. And that's it.

I'm guessing you're thinking of Sony's 2005 rootkit incident, which was an example of DRM implemented in a completely stupid and dangerous way. And it wasn't legal at the time nor is it now - Sony was forced to recall the CDs and settled a class-action lawsuit. But regardless of this, the fact that the program "gained access to private systems" was completely secondary to its goal of making the CD's content uncopyable.

I'm not saying I support it, but you're not helping your cause by telling hyperbolic lies about what DRM is.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#105

Post by dandelany »

jlgreco wrote: post #45
hmottestad wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OP, but here is my opinion. As a rule of thumb I don't support illegal activities. Why would I? Most of the laws I agree with, like no murder/rape/robbery. However some laws I'm against. Like the public drinking ban in Norway, why can't I have a beer by the lake? And on the topic of media industries vs. file sharing. I haven't really made up my mind. Especially after the media industry brought tanks and f…

There are so many laws, I don't know how you could possibly say in an informed manner that you agree with most of them. Making ethical decisions is easy for the majority of us, but our knowledge of the law is universally poor. I don't see why we should factor the law into discussions of ethics; it doesn't do anything to simplify the discussion.

> There are so many laws, I don't know how you could possibly say in an informed manner that you agree with most of them.

Oh, come on now. You can be informed on the ones that matter to you the most, and the ones which are most commonly broken, which says a lot about the society you live in. It's not that hard.

> I don't see why we should factor the law into discussions of ethics

Because laws, in many or most cases, reflect the moral or ethical views of a large number of people, or at least they did at the time they were passed. The fact that laws survived the lawmaking process at all means we should consider the thoughts that went into their creation. I'm not saying you should read every word of every statute. But a nation's laws are in many ways reflections of its cultural ethics.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#106

Post by r0s »

esonderegger wrote: post #86
dpkendal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Underground Railroad. Prohibition. Hush-A-Phone. The Communications Decency Act. Crypto export regulations. Breaking DRM.

The DRM argument for piracy is a bit of a straw man. Music hasn't been sold with DRM for over three years, but it still makes up a sizable portion of The Pirate Bay's offerings. You could say that musicians are being tyrannical by choosing to distribute their recordings in the way that maximizes their profit instead of choosing to give it away. I would reply that some people do choose to give away their work. I'm hap…

DRM for music is deeply entrenched in the ecosystem. The most overt of DRM layers can't exist on old media CDs, but it's still everywhere.

None of the major online music services allow unlimited sharing (of files), and even getting this far was a long legal mess, representing part of the extensive history where DRM has attempted to parasitize the legal system.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/are-google-music-...

Another form of DRM in the industry is a pre-emptive fee charged on certain blank digital media: http://torrentfreak.com/where-the-riaa-gets-its-money/

I work for a small record label in my spare time. We submitted a song for pressing (on vinyl), and received a warning from the RIAA not to sell it. The record contained a (very interpreted) cover of a pop song.

DRM at every level of the industry. The lack of direct software enforcement in digital music files really doesn't mean anything.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#107

Post by jrockway »

stinkytaco wrote: post #101
CamperBob2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Icy, rainy, foggy... going too fast is by far the most common cause of accidents. Your mistake is in confusing "going too fast for conditions" with "going too fast for a sign at the side of the road." The relevant laws are more complex than your beliefs. Failure to maintain appropriate speed for conditions does indeed get people killed, but it has nothing to do with "speeding." Under the wrong conditions, even drivin…

Considering all anyone has done is make assertations with no proof, I will take the view of the many traffic engineers I work with over your so called "trivial to find" examples, none of which you or anyone else has been able to provide or prove. I'm sure your expert driving skills keep you very safe, but I will count myself lucky that the 17 year old that cruises down my street at 45 MPH despite his percieved abilit…

Speeders are falling for the old "99% of people rate themselves as above average" thing. Most people feel safe speeding because they have never personally gotten into an accident. The lack of consequences creates a feeling of being invincible, or competence at the very least.

The fact is, if you hit a person at 35 they have a much higher chance of dying than if you hit them at 25. We encourage people to drive slowly so that they have more time to react to unexpected conditions and that if they fail to react, other people are not injured. Speeding is like dumping toxic waste into the nearby river: pure selfishness.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#108

Post by howcan »

saurik wrote: post #90
stinkytaco wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, that is why I put "consipiracy to commit copyright infringment" in quotation marks. That's not a thing and I don't really have an opinion on whether it should be a thing. I read you statement as you thinking he was making a moral equivlancy (conspiracy to commit murder was the same as aiding copyright infringement). My point was that he's not making a moral equivlancy, he's just pointing out that to…

Correct: I purposely did not delve into any specifics, because I was simply trying to demonstrate that "I did not host the file or do the actual infringement" is really not a sufficiently complex argument to actually mean that you are not liable, and even if it means you are not liable under current law, I do not feel it is at all clear that in some larger ethical sense you shouldn't be liable, and I can sympathize w…

It just seemed like a very extreme example to use to illustrate conspiracy. That's all. You're not the only one I've seen draw such extreme examples. I am being argumentative. But that's only because I think there's an argument worth making. Apologies for singling you out. I probably misinterpreted your comment and chose the wrong time to make my argument.

As long as we understand what "illegal" means and the difference between criminal and civil, I'm happy. I think it's to the benefit of all hackers to know the difference and choose their examples carefully. It matters what you as a hacker think and how you understand these things. If you do not see a clear separation between the civil and criminal, it makes the job easier for those who seek to blur the line to further their own interests.

Anyway, I apologise if I misinterpreted your comment and used it as an entry point for a little rant about the difference between civil and criminal. My bad.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#109

Post by jlgreco »

dandelany wrote: post #105
jlgreco wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many laws, I don't know how you could possibly say in an informed manner that you agree with most of them. Making ethical decisions is easy for the majority of us, but our knowledge of the law is universally poor. I don't see why we should factor the law into discussions of ethics; it doesn't do anything to simplify the discussion.

> There are so many laws, I don't know how you could possibly say in an informed manner that you agree with most of them. Oh, come on now. You can be informed on the ones that matter to you the most, and the ones which are most commonly broken, which says a lot about the society you live in. It's not that hard. > I don't see why we should factor the law into discussions of ethics Because laws, in many or most cases,…

The laws that "matter most" reflect ethics which are "no brainers". "Don't steal", "don't kill", "don't rape", etc.

These are ethical concepts that are easy to understand without resorting to consulting the law. The law in these cases is just an imperfect encoding of these obvious ethics. For the sake of governing, they work decently. However using them in an ethical discussion is using them for a purpose that they were not designed. There are so many better sources that we can look to in order to facilitate discussion.

Trying to use laws as a vehicle to discuss ethics is like examining Cheese Wiz to learn about dairy.

Re: The Pirate Bay - 9 years and still bloody runnin

#110

Post by CamperBob2 »

stinkytaco wrote: post #101
CamperBob2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Icy, rainy, foggy... going too fast is by far the most common cause of accidents. Your mistake is in confusing "going too fast for conditions" with "going too fast for a sign at the side of the road." The relevant laws are more complex than your beliefs. Failure to maintain appropriate speed for conditions does indeed get people killed, but it has nothing to do with "speeding." Under the wrong conditions, even drivin…

Considering all anyone has done is make assertations with no proof, I will take the view of the many traffic engineers I work with over your so called "trivial to find" examples, none of which you or anyone else has been able to provide or prove. I'm sure your expert driving skills keep you very safe, but I will count myself lucky that the 17 year old that cruises down my street at 45 MPH despite his percieved abilit…

Incidentally, do you propose that "too fast for conditions" be the law?

It is the law. The fact that you're even asking this question suggests that I'm wasting my time arguing with you.

You need to consult your state's driver's handbook, rather than asking some random guy on HN. Chances are it uses almost the same phrasing you're asking about. Failing that, have a look at the Michigan State Police's site: http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1593_30536_25802-16... . I didn't read the whole page but it seems to do a good job explaining the difference between prima facie speed limits and "basic speed law."

I find that surprising, considering how much discretionary power that would put in the hands of the government.

Artificially-low speed limits give them that discretion now, which is sort of the whole point of my mini-rant.

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