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The power of ignoring mainstream news

joel.is

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Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#61

Post by eldavido »

bpatrianakos wrote: post #46

This is terrible advice and not something I think people should be recommending to others. I love Joel's posts enough to subscribe to the rss feed (which I have never done for any site ever) but this post is something I strongly disagree with for many good reasons. The idea he puts forth is incredibly naive and has not been taken to its natural conclusion. He talks about the negative side of keeping up with the news…

This article comes at a very opportune moment for me, as I've been reading "Bowling Alone" over the past weeks. The book chronicles the many facets of decline in civic participation in the US (voting, church attendance, donation to charity, engagement with local schools, running for local office, etc.) and explains some of the consequences of the decline.

HN readers, as a whole, are very focused on science, technology, and startup businesses; this focus produces incredible innovation and wealth, but at a very real cost to communities, family life, and other "olive trees" that make life worth living.

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#62

Post by quesera »

ghshephard wrote: post #60
bpatrianakos wrote: post #46

This is terrible advice and not something I think people should be recommending to others. I love Joel's posts enough to subscribe to the rss feed (which I have never done for any site ever) but this post is something I strongly disagree with for many good reasons. The idea he puts forth is incredibly naive and has not been taken to its natural conclusion. He talks about the negative side of keeping up with the news…

"Not following the news is what causes harm." - I totally agree with Joel here, and disagree with you. I've spent the last 5 years pretty much a news junkie. I spent 2-3 hours a day, equally split between the NYT, WSJ, Economist, and weekends spent listening to NPR. What I've realized is that, in general, I'm not better informed about the world, but I am more indoctrinated into the Left Wing (NYT), Right Wing (WSJ) a…

I noticed that you summarized the slant for 3 of your 4 chosen sources, but not for NPR. I'm always curious about well-informed opinions regarding NPR's editorial position, and would like to hear yours.

For the record, I have read a fair bit of BBC News and CSMonitor in past years, and came away feeling that the Beeb was predictably middle of the road, and CSM was actually fairly good. I haven't read Al Jazeera but have heard it's more respectable than Americans expect. As for your other three, I agree with each. 538 is the only part of NYT that holds my interest.

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#63

Post by ghshephard »

quesera wrote: post #62
ghshephard wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not following the news is what causes harm." - I totally agree with Joel here, and disagree with you. I've spent the last 5 years pretty much a news junkie. I spent 2-3 hours a day, equally split between the NYT, WSJ, Economist, and weekends spent listening to NPR. What I've realized is that, in general, I'm not better informed about the world, but I am more indoctrinated into the Left Wing (NYT), Right Wing (WSJ) a…

I noticed that you summarized the slant for 3 of your 4 chosen sources, but not for NPR. I'm always curious about well-informed opinions regarding NPR's editorial position, and would like to hear yours. For the record, I have read a fair bit of BBC News and CSMonitor in past years, and came away feeling that the Beeb was predictably middle of the road, and CSM was actually fairly good. I haven't read Al Jazeera but h…

NPR clearly has a world view that they are posturing, It's just hard to nail down. They tend towards being liberal, and intellectual eliteness, but I've heard balanced stories on abortion, israel, and even gun rights - so they throw me off. NPR reminds me of Justice Kennedy. The majority of the time (as in, 90%+) I can tell you where Scalia, Roberts, Alito, Ginsburg, Breyer, Kagan, Sotomayor and Thomas will vote on a constitutional issue before them. That's not to say that Roberts won't throw me a curve ball and vote differently on an initiative than I expect (Health Care) - but, in general - I know where they will fall.

I'm no better than tossing a coin at guessing Kennedy.

I'm not saying he isn't trying to push his biased world view on me, I just haven't nailed it down yet. Same goes for NPR.

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#64

Post by FuzzyDunlop »

I agree with this, because it's something I've done for a while, but for different reasons (primarily to do with mental health).

But as an addendum to that it's also important to know and accept that, as a result, you are more ignorant. This isn't a bad thing, for as long as you know that you're willingly less informed. As stated, this is the opportunity cost for pursuing things more important to you.

As an aside, I'd like to recommend Flat Earth News[0] to anyone who wants a journalist's insight into how the news isn't always truthful.

As another one, I saw a comment saying Americans are how they are because they don't watch the news. I disagree. Watching the news does not make you culturally sensitive.

[0] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Earth-News-Award-winning-Distor...

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#65

Post by bpatrianakos »

quesera wrote: post #58
bpatrianakos wrote: post #46

This is terrible advice and not something I think people should be recommending to others. I love Joel's posts enough to subscribe to the rss feed (which I have never done for any site ever) but this post is something I strongly disagree with for many good reasons. The idea he puts forth is incredibly naive and has not been taken to its natural conclusion. He talks about the negative side of keeping up with the news…

The critical error in your logic is to believe that "the news" is news . It just isn't. By and large, it's noise , which you either have time for in your life, or you do not. I understand your worry about ignorance, and it's valid, but I believe that tuning into the noise makes people stupid. Ignorance can be resolved much more quickly and on-demand than stupidity can.

Ignoring news outlets leaves you without a chance though. Yeah, there's lots of news coming out of many mainstream outlets but if you tune then out completely then you leave yourself without even the chance to filter signal from noise. It doesn't take that much effort that it becomes not even worth trying anymore. Just because there's lots of noise in your signal doesn't mean you throw away the signal with the noise (or the baby out with the bath water).

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#66

Post by bpatrianakos »

ghshephard wrote: post #60
bpatrianakos wrote: post #46

This is terrible advice and not something I think people should be recommending to others. I love Joel's posts enough to subscribe to the rss feed (which I have never done for any site ever) but this post is something I strongly disagree with for many good reasons. The idea he puts forth is incredibly naive and has not been taken to its natural conclusion. He talks about the negative side of keeping up with the news…

"Not following the news is what causes harm." - I totally agree with Joel here, and disagree with you. I've spent the last 5 years pretty much a news junkie. I spent 2-3 hours a day, equally split between the NYT, WSJ, Economist, and weekends spent listening to NPR. What I've realized is that, in general, I'm not better informed about the world, but I am more indoctrinated into the Left Wing (NYT), Right Wing (WSJ) a…

I made it a point to make sure I mentioned that all news is biased. I meter said otherwise. But bias is not a bad thing like everyone wants to make us think. Sometimes bias is good. Not all opinions are created equal and this whole idea of two differing opinions both having equal merit is bullshit. Sometimes one opinion has merit and the other is just bullshit. I embrace bias.

You called yourself a news junkie. That right there is the problem. Being a news junkie is just as unhealthy as completely ignoring the media.

Watching the Daily Show is no different than consuming news from any other mainstream outlet. It may be satire but it's still news and it's still mainstream.

I don't know how you can say you're not better informed. If you consume news from anywhere at all then you're infinitely more informed than anyone who goes along with Joel's no-news-consumption advice.

I feel like you didn't read what I wrote because I do address some of what you say in my comment. I don't blame you though, I didn't realize it was such a long comment when I wrote it.

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#67

Post by bpatrianakos »

mquander wrote: post #57
bpatrianakos wrote: post #46

This is terrible advice and not something I think people should be recommending to others. I love Joel's posts enough to subscribe to the rss feed (which I have never done for any site ever) but this post is something I strongly disagree with for many good reasons. The idea he puts forth is incredibly naive and has not been taken to its natural conclusion. He talks about the negative side of keeping up with the news…

Why is tuning out the wrong solution? Almost everyone can "get away with being uninformed," because current events have no bearing on most people's lives most of the time. I can name one hundred things that I could learn in twenty minutes which would be more useful to me than reading the morning paper. If something is actually interesting, then news sources which I have meticulously populated with interesting things…

The price is something you described. You prefer to learn from your friends and blogs rather than news outlets. The consensus is that media is useless and biased but it's not so bad that you're better off ignoring it all.

Your friends and those bloggers are the same kind of non-experts explaining complicated things as the guy who writes the editorials you just got done criticizing.

I'm not knocking your friends or your rss feed. Those are truly useful information sources that I use too but there's no substitute for real journalism. There's a lot of bullshit journalism out there but the good stuff isn't extinct yet. If everyone keeps being so jaded about the news then journalism as a profession is going to die and that's sad because we need those kinds of people in this world.

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#68

Post by bpatrianakos »

giardini wrote: post #55
bpatrianakos wrote: post #46

This is terrible advice and not something I think people should be recommending to others. I love Joel's posts enough to subscribe to the rss feed (which I have never done for any site ever) but this post is something I strongly disagree with for many good reasons. The idea he puts forth is incredibly naive and has not been taken to its natural conclusion. He talks about the negative side of keeping up with the news…

Not a recipe for ignorance but good advice. Nassim Nicholas Taleb gave almost identical advice years ago: "Don’t read newspapers for the news (just for the gossip and, of course, profiles of authors). The best filter to know if the news matters is if you hear it in cafes, restaurants... or (again) parties." and "If something is going on, I hear about it. I like to talk to people, I socialise. Television is a waste of…

Take that thought and think it all the way through. Where will your friend hear it? Iwhat you're suggesting is that we get our news in the form of Chinese whispers. A handful of first hand accounts that become second third and fourth hand accounts. All the people spreading the news don't have the full details, time and resources to follow up. When you go to those parties and socialize it turns into a bunch of uninformed fools basically spreading rumors based on hearsay and conjecture because there wasn't a trusted source (like a journalist) who could get all the facts straight and filter some of the bullshit before it led people to missing the point.

Even if we assume that people spreading news on their own can all be trusted and reliable that still severely limits the news you can get. People who want to spread a certain message will make sure you hear about it but the real news is often something people will actively try to keep from becoming public. Without journalists working for media outlets we won't get that kind of news. Stories of corruption and scandal are easily hidden in the scenario you describe and the world ends up talking about stories that would show up in People magazine because the average person doesn't care about what's up in Lybia, they care about what's happening with the Real Housewives of Bullshit City USA.

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#69

Post by quesera »

bpatrianakos wrote: post #65
quesera wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The critical error in your logic is to believe that "the news" is news . It just isn't. By and large, it's noise , which you either have time for in your life, or you do not. I understand your worry about ignorance, and it's valid, but I believe that tuning into the noise makes people stupid. Ignorance can be resolved much more quickly and on-demand than stupidity can.

Ignoring news outlets leaves you without a chance though. Yeah, there's lots of news coming out of many mainstream outlets but if you tune then out completely then you leave yourself without even the chance to filter signal from noise. It doesn't take that much effort that it becomes not even worth trying anymore. Just because there's lots of noise in your signal doesn't mean you throw away the signal with the noise…

That argument can go both ways. Some people, on a steady diet of noise, are even less able to discern sense from nonsense. Anchoring and all that.

When the national news was 30 minutes every night, maybe there was time between that and the next 'cast to assimilate and critically consider what you heard. Nowadays, if you're thinking about the news, you're less than a click away from the next iteration of someone else's marginally considered opinion, presented with gravitas and authority. Heck, why think?

Turn it off. Check in every week or two -- they'll still be talking about all of the same things, there's nothing to miss.

Re: The power of ignoring mainstream news

#70

Post by tptacek »

batgaijin wrote: post #53
tptacek wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't argue with that because that isn't an argument. Most companies are funded by rich people. Who knows whether Trapwire "wants to get noticed"? They sell to giant organizations, not to the public. Most of what you know about Trapwire probably comes via Stratfor thirdhand via Wikileaks by way of Reddit. Think about that again: your information started at Stratfor . It was then spun by Wikileaks . And then it wa…

Hmm... You make fair points, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't trust NYT because of stuff like this: http://www.salon.com/2010/10/24/assange_2/ Out of all those organizations you listed, the only one I trust atm is Washing Post for reporting on the USA gov because they published this: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/ I agree, reddit usually has stupid shit second-hand, is run by a publi…

You don't trust the New York Times because Glenn Greenwald wrote a piece for Salon calling them Nixonian?

That piece is too inflammatory for me to take seriously. The New York Times wrote a hit piece on someone? A scurrilous hit piece filled with every possible rumor? Really? Every one of them, you say?

When you write something like that, you'd better be able to back it up with something more than moral support from Daniel Ellsberg.

You can't say you're a serious consumer of the news if you select the publications you trust based on whether they support your pet causes.

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