Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

When the job search becomes impossible

jeffwofford.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 469 posts

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#31

Post by the__alchemist »

the_real_cher wrote: post #25
kfk wrote: post #17

I met many programmers during the boom years of software that straight out refused to develop any type of soft or managerial skills. Forget that, they even refused to maintain good relationships with decision makers (and I did this too, but only once in my carrier), left jobs in bad ways, focused on chasing salary increases every 6 months. And here is the problem. If you have been chasing "easy" salary increases, wor…

> It's very, very, very hard to maintain sharp coding skills decade after decade. This is straight up agism and should be banned. It's like saying black people can't code as well as white people. Carmack and Torvalds would disagree with you.

Would you say, broadly, concepts you disagree with or find uncomfortable should be banned? Do you think that's sufficient, or should they be criminalized as well?

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#32

Post by pizzathyme »

mschild wrote: post #22
pizzathyme wrote: post #13

> "You’ve spent several months sending out scores of carefully tailored resumes and cover letters for jobs you know you are fully qualified for and would excel at." People should not do this. It is causing so much suffering. In my 6 jobs in my career from college internship to startups to Big Tech, I have never gotten a job from sending an application into a site. It's always been through (somehow) tracking down a pe…

This might work if you already have a network, but otherwise good luck getting through to people on the phone. HR will answer the generic questions, but tell you to apply online. Cold "calling" people on LinkedIn is a shot in the dark. Some people don't mind you doing it, most will ignore you.

If you just graduated college or have no network, you can reach out to alumni and mention that connection. Or, you can ask personal friends/family for contacts (will probably be local companies, which may be a first step job).

Or you can reach out over social media. "Hi there, I follow you on X and am just getting started in the industry. Do you mind if I ask a few research questions?" A friend of mine just used this technique to land a role in an industry where he had no contacts.

If the situation is "good luck getting through to people on the phone", then that probably means this person is not a real friend of yours, they are a stranger, and you shouldn't try. You should be reaching out to people who actually know your name, or you have a mutual friend.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#33

Post by throwawayoldie »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #23
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #6

This essay just makes me feel so hopeless about our society. I don’t feel it’s right that employment has such weight in people’s lives that the search causes psychological damage.

I think a lot of people simply don't know what to do with themselves when they don't have a job. There are many psychological needs that jobs often provide for you that you have to sort out yourself when you don't have traditional employement. This is a problem you face through unemployement, but also self-employment and early retirement. At least in part, it's not so much not having a job as not having daily structu…

> I think a lot of people simply don't know what to do with themselves when they don't have a job.

I would be perfectly happy without a job. It's the income I'm concerned about.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#34

Post by jackcosgrove »

TrackerFF wrote: post #12

I've been thinking about job searching lately, maybe a bit too much. I'm employed, so it is not any immediate concern for me, but one has to think ahead. Between age discrimination that starts after 50, and how difficult the job search seemingly is...some people will have to work at least until they're 70. That's a solid 15-20 years more, after the job hunting is an uphill battle. If the work search is hard while you…

It was always my understanding that software careers are shorter than other technical careers, and the higher wages compensate for this. More than compensate, if you invest early.

If by FIRE you mean retire in your 50s, I don't think that's an aspiration. That should be an expectation. You might be able to work a full career in this industry, but I wouldn't plan on it.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#35

Post by pizzathyme »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #24
pizzathyme wrote: post #13

> "You’ve spent several months sending out scores of carefully tailored resumes and cover letters for jobs you know you are fully qualified for and would excel at." People should not do this. It is causing so much suffering. In my 6 jobs in my career from college internship to startups to Big Tech, I have never gotten a job from sending an application into a site. It's always been through (somehow) tracking down a pe…

> A form is not going to a hire you, a person is. This is becoming less and less true. > You need to ignore the form and talk to a person. Unless you're lucky, this is no longer going to happen. Getting a job is now becoming much more about luck, circumstances, and who you already know, much like getting your first starring role in a movie -- not about your abilities.

No form is going to extend a job offer autonomously. At some point in the chain, there will be a boss, a person, who talks to you and thinks, "I want to work with this person", and decides to make the offer.

So the goal is to figure out how to get in touch with that hiring manager as the first step. Even if the form or HR "rejects" you, this person can step in say, "that's silly, I want to work with them. Send them through"

I think this charade of sending in resumes to forms is causing people so much pain. It feels like rejection and is not moving them closer to a job.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#36

Post by bopbopbop7 »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #24
pizzathyme wrote: post #13

> "You’ve spent several months sending out scores of carefully tailored resumes and cover letters for jobs you know you are fully qualified for and would excel at." People should not do this. It is causing so much suffering. In my 6 jobs in my career from college internship to startups to Big Tech, I have never gotten a job from sending an application into a site. It's always been through (somehow) tracking down a pe…

> A form is not going to a hire you, a person is. This is becoming less and less true. > You need to ignore the form and talk to a person. Unless you're lucky, this is no longer going to happen. Getting a job is now becoming much more about luck, circumstances, and who you already know, much like getting your first starring role in a movie -- not about your abilities.

You need luck to have a network now?

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#37

Post by throwaw12 »

the_real_cher wrote: post #25
kfk wrote: post #17

I met many programmers during the boom years of software that straight out refused to develop any type of soft or managerial skills. Forget that, they even refused to maintain good relationships with decision makers (and I did this too, but only once in my carrier), left jobs in bad ways, focused on chasing salary increases every 6 months. And here is the problem. If you have been chasing "easy" salary increases, wor…

> It's very, very, very hard to maintain sharp coding skills decade after decade. This is straight up agism and should be banned. It's like saying black people can't code as well as white people. Carmack and Torvalds would disagree with you.

Wrong comparison, black vs white is racism, ageism is real

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#38

Post by calepayson »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #27
pizzathyme wrote: post #13

> "You’ve spent several months sending out scores of carefully tailored resumes and cover letters for jobs you know you are fully qualified for and would excel at." People should not do this. It is causing so much suffering. In my 6 jobs in my career from college internship to startups to Big Tech, I have never gotten a job from sending an application into a site. It's always been through (somehow) tracking down a pe…

As other posters have said, this only really works if you have a network. Zeroth-order referrals (i.e. they call you) work best, first-order referrals (i.e. you know someone at the company) work decently well, and second-order referrals (you know someone who knows someone to refer you) are a guided shot in the dark. People who have networks all know this. The issue is that a shocking number of people don't have any n…

And juniors. I’m in a masters program right now and everyone’s got a network, it just happens to be filled with poor starving grad students instead of FAANG super stars :)

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#39

Post by r_lee »

mschild wrote: post #26
creata wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then why wouldn't you just commit suicide? I'm trying not to upset the people around me.

Please, and I say this with love, seek psychological help. If that's the only thing from stopping you, you need to talk to someone.

Agreed, but I would say talking to someone isn't a magical fix here.

OP, I would be interested in knowing if that's the case, why are you posting here on HN, getting up in the morning, doing the things you do etc?

Are you depressed (if so) in a physiological or psychological kind of way (because of something external?)

I will say I am not doing too well, but still, if I look at things objectively right now, I'd still rather wait and see what happens in this world rather than choosing nothingness. My rock bottom is someone's heaven

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#40

Post by drivebyhooting »

kfk wrote: post #17

I met many programmers during the boom years of software that straight out refused to develop any type of soft or managerial skills. Forget that, they even refused to maintain good relationships with decision makers (and I did this too, but only once in my carrier), left jobs in bad ways, focused on chasing salary increases every 6 months. And here is the problem. If you have been chasing "easy" salary increases, wor…

> the reality is that you will eventually end up with a set of tech skills that a kid 20 years younger than you, with no family and so being able to live on lower salary, probably has too

I agree.

But if they only solution is to go into management, how is the career not a pyramid scheme? For each former engineer to go into management, 5 more must take his original place. That’s clearly unsustainable.

Post reply on HN