Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

discuss.grapheneos.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 208 posts

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#81

Post by Brian_K_White »

colordrops wrote: post #72
azalemeth wrote: post #10

I really love Graphene OS but I _wish_ there was a version in which you could get a root shell and extract private data of apps you install when verified as the user. The developers are on record as saying that root blows a hole in their security model (it does!) but if there was _some_ way of doing it safely, so I can modify applications I as the user wish to, it would be my ideal OS. I know I could download and sel…

What is the threat model when enabling root on a phone and why can't it be mitigated? Root is enabled on most servers and desktops and we are surviving fine.

The way apps behave and the user interface to apps and the way they are used, the level of basic visibility and control that the user has moment to moment, is totally different on a phone than on a pc.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#82

Post by MrOwen »

jbstack wrote: post #41
danans wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, you can tax more up to a point, but eventually that tap runs dry and you're forced to reallocate existing resources. Since the 1980s, we have been consistently taxing less. If the tap is dry, it isn't because of over-taxation - it's because there's a reservoir of wealth hoarded by the relatively few. A even cursory glance at the trajectory of wealth distribution will make that clear.

> Since the 1980s, we have been consistently taxing less Who is "we"? We're talking about governments in general ("good" vs "bad" ones), and I have no idea what jurisdiction you are referring to. In any case, I didn't say the tap is dry. I said if you keep raising taxes it will eventually run dry. Or to put it another way, taxes are not an unlimited resource that you can keep increasing as much as you'd like. At some…

How are you coming to the conclusion that it will run dry? For example, in the US, arguably the most prosperous period here was in the first half of the 1900s. It is when Roosevelt's New Deal went into place and the US experienced extraordinary growth and prosperity. Do you know what also coincided with this? The marginal income tax rate. From wikipedia:

> For tax years 1944 through 1951, the highest marginal tax rate for individuals was 91%, increasing to 92% for 1952 and 1953, and reverting to 91% 1954 through 1963.

Since that time, the income tax rate has declined, especially for the higher brackets. From my perspective, it kinda just sounds like wealthy people got greedy and they were able to advocate for income tax changes. Back then, they couldn't pull as much funny business as they do today with high compensation modalities ($1 trillion for Musk?) so they opted for marginal tax rate reduction. But there's no evidence from what I can see that the the money was about to "run dry." Quite the opposite it seems. Even in nordic countries, the money is not "running dry". They have great support systems in large part because of the high marginal tax rates.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#83

Post by npoc »

jbstack wrote: post #24
marcofloriano wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. When the government fails to delivery what people need (not necessarily wants), you have a bad government. When gangs and bandits (or drugs, or diseases, or whatever) takes on the street, it's not about people's view, it's just bad stuff that the government need to address or there's no point on having a government.

Aside from the fact that there's a subjective definition problem here (how do we decide what people "need"?), I think this an unrealistic view. By this definition, every government that has ever existed or ever will exist is a "bad" government because no government can ever tackle every single problem 100% of the time. Many problems are extremely difficult to solve (e.g. global warming), and others simply cannot be s…

There is no man-made global warming crisis. The earth is in fact one of the coldest periods in history.

Thoroughly explained here: https://youtu.be/KDwCUAueLUU

What the "man-made global warming crisis" is, is an example of how a corrupt/captured state will overreach and control the people for its own gain through manipulation. Many governments are captured by the now global financial system that has almost unlimited power due to its money printers. It charges interest on money that it prints out of thin air. By leveraging its existing power to steer the governments to spend money it is able to effectively spend printed money (governemnt loans) on itself and then receive interest on that money as a bonus. A positive feedback loop that ends in global domination by the unelected financial system with the national and international central banks at its heart. Even worse is that it's power obtained essentially through fraud - it's all based on lending out something for interest that isn't theirs. It started with them lending out gold that people had given them to safely look after in their vaults.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#84

Post by n4r9 »

npoc wrote: post #83
jbstack wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the fact that there's a subjective definition problem here (how do we decide what people "need"?), I think this an unrealistic view. By this definition, every government that has ever existed or ever will exist is a "bad" government because no government can ever tackle every single problem 100% of the time. Many problems are extremely difficult to solve (e.g. global warming), and others simply cannot be s…

There is no man-made global warming crisis. The earth is in fact one of the coldest periods in history. Thoroughly explained here: https://youtu.be/KDwCUAueLUU What the "man-made global warming crisis" is , is an example of how a corrupt/captured state will overreach and control the people for its own gain through manipulation. Many governments are captured by the now global financial system that has almost unlimited…

Requiring people to watch a 1hr+ video to understand your argument is a big red flag.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#85

Post by fsflover »

rfoo wrote: post #79
imiric wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A root access is a big hole How so? On Linux, I can add an account to the sudoers list, and have the flexibility to configure the level of security appropriate for my use case. I have yet to experience any security issues (that I'm aware of). Why isn't this possible on my mobile device as well? This absolute stance is not right. Security is not binary, but a spectrum. I should be allowed to have full control over m…

Well, anyone with actual root on a secure (locked, verified boot on) Android phone can hard brick it with a single command. Yes, you can yell at the user telling them it's their fault. Still something you usually do not want to support. I don't think having authorized temporary root is inherently insecure, but on the other hand making sure it is secure could be a huge time sink. Now, the original request here, modify…

> Designing a properly authenticated way to allow doing so would be an interesting challenge.

Qubes OS solved this problem. I don't see any flaws in their security model relying on vurtualization.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#87

Post by IlikeKitties »

Anonyneko wrote: post #25
p0w3n3d wrote: post #4

There is no such thing like "bad government" and "good government". I mean - it really depends on people's views, therefore we must not blissfully put our data into govt hands because "they will protect us from terrorists and child rapists". What they will do, actually, is that for sure they will abuse innocent citizens at some point of time. They will. Even if they don't, they will. Or maybe they are doing it right…

It's an interesting argument in theory, but in practice the government in my country of origin actively searches through people's phones to find evidence of wrongthink (e.g. donations or incriminating social media activity), for which they sentence people to incredibly long prison terms. The latest example: https://en.zona.media/article/2025/08/27/irin That said, no matter how secure GrapheneOS may be, for this parti…

If the reaction to "I'm not unlocking my phone" is being beaten and put into a gulag, no technical solution will help.

But countries that have fallen that far off the path are not worth saving anyway.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#89

Post by rfoo »

megaloblasto wrote: post #31
keerthiko wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of the explanation from the horse's mouth will be found here: https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-support

Thanks > These devices meet the stringent privacy and security standards and have substantial upstream and downstream hardening specific to the devices It still seems strange. A big part of GrapheneOS is to provide a safeguard from Googles data hoarding, yet it works primarily on Google phones.

> It still seems strange. A big part of GrapheneOS is to provide a safeguard from Googles data hoarding, yet it works primarily on Google phones.

That's the most confusing part. IMO GrapheneOS is not mainly about "provide a safeguard from Googles data hoarding", instead this is more like a side quest.

GrapheneOS is about creating a mobile OS that is more secure against advanced threats [0] than anything else, including stock Pixel OS and iOS.

[0] Currently my rule of thumb is, anyone who can find and write exploits for new memory corruption bugs for the wanted attack surface, or who can buy such capability, qualifies as advanced threat. Hence Cellebrite qualifies as a borderline "advanced threat".

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#90

Post by other8026 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #45
nixgeek wrote: post #36

This feels like countering insinuations on the Internet with insinuations on the Internet. Cellebrite doesn't publicly publish the latest support matrix so we have no real idea what progress if any they've made against recent iPhones and iOS versions, nor any real detail on how something like Lockdown Mode influences outcomes for their software. Nor does this show anything about Pixel 9 or Pixel 10 and the newest var…

Documents have been leaked at the beginning of this year: https://osservatorionessuno.org/blog/2025/03/a-deep-dive-int... which do include the Pixel 9. They show GrapheneOS being pretty secure in comparison to other vendors at the very least, with GrapheneOS being marked as unsupported if patched beyond 2022. They also show GrapheneOS beating the stock Google firmware. One reason GrapheneOS fights these threads is by…

> GrapheneOS also enables security features when compiling the OS that have a performance impact but mitigate security risks. They end up with a slower phone with less battery life that's protected better against extremely uncommon attack vectors.

Apps may take slightly longer to launch, which was more noticeable on older devices, but not so much on modern supported devices. I understand that some of the other exploit protections mean that apps and processes take up slightly more memory, but that's another thing that people don't seem to be affected by.

As for battery life, not really. Most people report having roughly the same battery life with GrapheneOS as with the stock OS. People who don't install Google Play report much better battery life. Sure, the exploit protections might use a small amount of extra power, but it's negligible as far as I can tell based on my own experiences and what other people report.

Post reply on HN