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Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

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Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#101
post #94

I am not taking sides. Don't have all the data. I'll just say that there's a huge difference between "Research & Development" and only "Development". The first is far more time consuming, risky and expensive. The second is a clear and guided roadmap that you simply follow to completion. I used to be an idealist. I bought the whole idea of "just build a better product" without question. And so I did. Many years ago I…

Your story is interesting but your language clearly shows how it has affected your view on things - you refer to your competitors, who did nothing more than compete with you exactly as one expects in a free marketplace as "cheating", "stealing", "copying" etc. You assume that you have a natural ownership of any idea that enters your head just because you decide to expend effort into researching it. Have you thought a…

Look buddy, I am not going to go into every single detail of what my life was like during that period. Let's just say that you can't --and should not-- reach such conclusions from the very limited view I chose to share with you in a short post. I am condensing over a decade worth of experiences into a few paragraphs.

Here's a short one. Imagine this: A competitor asks you to meet, under NDA, to discuss licensing your product. "Can you build one for us with these features?" is the theme of the meeting. After lawyers do their thing, NDA's and other documents are in place, the meetings get started. These are deep technical meetings with information being shared for the purpose of developing a licensed product. Then, the talks end abruptly with no communication from the other side. Six months later they show-up at the next tradeshow with the very product you helped them understand, explore, diagram and almost get to market.

Here's another one: You hire a consultant to design a product for you. The consultant doesn't really know the field but he is capable. You, effectively, pay this person to learn on the job and design a widget for you. He does. Then, a few months later, after having learned the technical bits and also about the market opportunity, he launches a company with a competing product for less. You, effectively, paid for the "R" in "R&D". All he had to do was the "D".

These are not hypothetical situations. These actually happened.

99% copying and 1% something new?

Have you ever competed in anything? Say, swimming. Do you know how hard it is to get 1% better than world class? How about building a race car that is 1% better? C'mon, all you have to do is copy 99% of the design and then improve only 1% of it. Go do it and then come back and tell me how trivial it is to innovate just 1% of something already at the state of the art. I don't know one person who goes through such and experience that would make the kinds of comments you made.

Let's all hold hands, sing kumbaya and smoke one. Right.

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#102
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has long since begun. It is beyond me, why everyone chooses to ignore Nokia's taking a chunk out of Apple and Microsoft taking a chunk out of HTC, Samsung and Barnes & Nobles. Apple's case isn't anything new.

Many tech companies have used patents in the past to get royalties from each other. Some have been more aggressive than others. What is new about the Apple case is that they appear to be using patents to completely block competitors from the market, and making a huge amount of noise about how other companies are "blatantly copying" things like slide-to-unlock. Microsoft have been extracting money from Android manufac…

Watch more patent litigation. The suits are always just proxies for the licensing negotiation. Even seeking to get products blocked from market is just hardball.

Despite the massive judgment in the Samsung/Apple case, it will likely all boil down to licensing agreements.

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#103
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has long since begun. It is beyond me, why everyone chooses to ignore Nokia's taking a chunk out of Apple and Microsoft taking a chunk out of HTC, Samsung and Barnes & Nobles. Apple's case isn't anything new.

This is true and Apple's case will eventually fade to the background just as the Nokia case did and Microsoft's case(s). If anything, it should be a sign that the US patent system needs to be looked at and reviewed, not completely rebuilt, but rather revamped.

It's continually revamped. In fact, large parts of the Leahy-Smith America Invents Act are going into effect just next week. (the rest to follow in March) It includes many of the top items that internet geeks call for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leahy-Smith_America_Invents_Act

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#104
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story is interesting but your language clearly shows how it has affected your view on things - you refer to your competitors, who did nothing more than compete with you exactly as one expects in a free marketplace as "cheating", "stealing", "copying" etc. You assume that you have a natural ownership of any idea that enters your head just because you decide to expend effort into researching it. Have you thought a…

Look buddy, I am not going to go into every single detail of what my life was like during that period. Let's just say that you can't --and should not-- reach such conclusions from the very limited view I chose to share with you in a short post. I am condensing over a decade worth of experiences into a few paragraphs. Here's a short one. Imagine this: A competitor asks you to meet, under NDA, to discuss licensing your…

First, I apologize for being somewhat presumptuous - clearly this was a very distressing and unfortunate series of events where your legitimate interests were harmed in pretty shady ways.

The only thing I'd add is that from what you've described, you would / should have had perfectly good legal redress completely independent of patents. The kinds of problems you describe would normally be addressed through contract and trade secrets law - presumably you had NDAs, contracts that protected your interests with contractors, etc. If those didn't work or you didn't have the resources to follow them through then I'm not sure you can presume patents would have been different.

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#105

Wise man. The way I see it, Apple had a case regarding "trade dress". Some Samsung devices, for example the Galaxy Tab 10.1, do look too much like Apple products. However, the rest of the patents were ridiculous. If the bar for patent validity is going to be this low, most software developers will not be able to do a day's work without accidentally infringing on something. Every piece of software I've seen being buil…

I'm interested in why you thought the bar was set low? From all my reading, it sounded like Samsung had to go out of their way to emulate the Apple processes, it wasn't something they would have accidentally done. I'm not saying I agree with the verdict, but a lot of people misrepresent this case as, "Apple has a patent on pinch-to-zoom" (not true), and Samsung was sued for building a rectangle-with-glass (not true)…

How about:

1. Rounded Square Icons on interface 2. Enlarging documents by tapping the screen

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-versus-samsung-2012-8?o...

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#106
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

minor nit: it wouldn't shock me if SGS 3 did win one or more months and I have no doubt devices will start to do that with regularity but that data point was questionable and looked to be based on carrier store data only. more minor nit: blackberry frequently outsold the iphone for several years. trivia/speculation: original droid launched 11/09 and finished 3rd to iphone 3gs's 2nd for the whole '09 holiday quarter (…

Yes, I believe this is the first time a non-iPhone has won the quarter.

Maybe I wasn't clear but Blackberry won most quarters for the first 2 years of iphone.

Also: the report was that GS3 "won" US sales in August not the quarter (which isn't over yet). Which may be true but the report looked like it was just counting carrier stores which doesn't necessarily mean they won overall. Whether the GS3 "wins" the quarter seems like a red herring given the iP5 will only have 2 weeks on sale this quarter.

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look buddy, I am not going to go into every single detail of what my life was like during that period. Let's just say that you can't --and should not-- reach such conclusions from the very limited view I chose to share with you in a short post. I am condensing over a decade worth of experiences into a few paragraphs. Here's a short one. Imagine this: A competitor asks you to meet, under NDA, to discuss licensing your…

First, I apologize for being somewhat presumptuous - clearly this was a very distressing and unfortunate series of events where your legitimate interests were harmed in pretty shady ways. The only thing I'd add is that from what you've described, you would / should have had perfectly good legal redress completely independent of patents. The kinds of problems you describe would normally be addressed through contract a…

No worries. I understand that it is hard to communicate or see both sides of something through this medium.

Legal action is a funny thing. I get the sense that people think that it's easy, that in the US it's as easy as making a phone call and you've got a lawsuit.

The reality, in my experience, is quite different. In business at least, it's part of the arms race. Can you sue a multi-billion dollar corporation for violating an NDA? Absolutely. The very first thing you lawyer will require is a $250,000 "war chest" and a demonstrable means to be in it for twice that much. It's a game you cannot win even if the truth is on your side.

That's another misconception of my youth that got washed away with a bucket of ice-cold water. You don't necessarily win because you are on the right side of an argument.

I'll give you another example. I had a case where my most valuable reseller, a company with great standing in the industry, was effectively bribed by said multinational corporation to exclude our products from their exhibit at a trade show. I have copies of the emails between employees of the company and the CEO of the reseller outfit. Could I sue? Sure. Was there potential for federal antitrust action. Very likely. Was I on the right side of the issue? Without a doubt. Was I guaranteed a win? Absolutely not. The more likely outcome would have been that seeking legal action would have ruined my business in more ways than one.

Don't get me wrong, I've taken legal action when justified and, more importantly, the "army's" were reasonably matched. In other cases you sometimes have to lick your wounds and move on.

This is the kind of stuff they don't teach you about in school. I can't say that I am grateful to have learned it this way because it is a shitty way to learn things, but sometimes there's no other way. I am still a very enthusiastic entrepreneur with multiple projects cooking. Life is good.

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#108

Turn-by-Turn navigation came on Android way earlier than it came with iPhone 5 yesterday. How fair it is for Apple complain about stealing ideas?

I am not saying "Infringing Patents". I am saying "Stealing Ideas". They are not the same terms. As Tim Cook put it in his email "sending a loud and clear message that stealing isn’t right".

It doesn't matter who the original inventor of Turn-by-Turn navigation is. It came on Android earlier. If something is not protected under patent, it doesn't mean that you are not stealing/copying an idea when you copy a feature from other devices/systems. It's wrong when you copy features of competitors and you blast at them when they do so.

http://9to5mac.com/2012/08/24/tim-cook-tells-apple-employees...

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#109

Turn-by-Turn navigation came on Android way earlier than it came with iPhone 5 yesterday. How fair it is for Apple complain about stealing ideas?

Turn by turn existed before Android.

Agreed. Apple can't accuse competitors of being copycats when they are a copycat too at times.

Re: Steve Wozniak on Samsung patent verdict: ‘I hate it and I don’t agree with it’

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to say, that Apple was not aware about the thing called turn-by-turn navigation before Android? > How fair it is for Apple complain about stealing ideas? How about spending some time and finding out what the trial was really about?

"Are you trying to say, that Apple was not aware about the thing called turn-by-turn navigation before Android?" Are you trying to say that Google was not aware of universal search? http://www.google.com/patents/US8086604

Well, to be fair, the filing date on that patent is Dec 1, 2004.

Absent genuine industrial espionage, it would have been rather hard for the Google Desktop team to have been aware of it in October 2004: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Desktop

Or are you saying Google should have checked for new patents (and patent applications - this wasn't issued until December 2011) before re-implementing something they'd already done on the desktop on an Android phone?

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