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The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

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Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#91
Physically, demos and game development have advanced far beyond where they were at the beginning of the demoscene, but now people no longer come together. Game engines and devices have become accessible to everyone, and people are constantly inventing new things. For example, just look at the number of algorithms and new gameplay mechanics now compared to 10 years ago.

In 2012, I created a live coding platform and spent a lot of time thinking about why live coding didn’t become more popular than traditional coding. Live coding came about 10 years before React, which became reactive because you no longer had to press F5 every time you updated the HTML (I worked on the first version of React Webpack, which was doing server-side rendering).

Later, after going through a startup accelerator, the puzzle finally clicked for me. Companies and businesses began making serious money from video games, discovering lots of talent in the wild indie dev and demoscene space. The best talents were like raw gems and this eventually scaled into an industry.

Now, the best innovations are being patented and presented at SIGGRAPH and the game engine market is massive. Of course, amid all the flashiness and white-collar presence, it’s hard to spot the demosceners, but they’re behind every game. They’ve just been hired by corporations and their talent no longer expresses itself in the same way.

Unfortunately, companies provide very little support for the demoscene, which is why we don’t see the same explosive growth here as we do in games, graphics or AI.

I remember one case where a guy was hired to animate King Kong’s face for a movie and he spent two years hand-animating every single emotion. I wonder what kind of demos he might have created during that time if the corporation hadn’t hired him and forced him into repetitive work.

The market.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#92
post #57
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrow definition, really. In general demos have neither much to do with shaders (except insofar that you have to write shaders to do 3D on GPUs), nor are they size-limited in general; only certain subtypes are.

The procedural music aspect doesn't get enough love. There's an amazing amount of DSP like stuff going on in the background. Most people focus on the visuals though

Definitely!

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#93
post #15

"The scene is dead" has become a meme by now. For example the "new talent" Meteoriks award is introduced with "For a scene that has been dead since 1999, our walking dead are pretty fresh". It is well alive. Sure, we still see some of the same people from 1989, and the average age is certainly going up, but it absolutely doesn't mean we aren't seeing new blood. Styles change, technical achievement is usually seen in…

Computing in general is /huge/ now. X is dying is funny in tech. By raw number of participants has it ever really changed? Take MUDs for example, I remember my MUD days. There are still hundreds of active MUDs. Is X really dying? Who knows.

I remember playing MUDs in high school because my system admin blocked all online games, but didn't block telnet. I credit it with my high speed typing and finally getting better than 50/50 at spelling. I'm towards the later part of my thirties. Just checked out their website and they still seem to be alive and well. Don't even require telnet anymore, lots of browser or desktop apps to do what a telnet terminal did

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#94

I didn’t know what the demo scene was before I read this. I still don’t. Is it hackathons?

It's a kind of a coding competition, indeed. The goals and the circumstances differ from a hackathon. The demoscene events are not for coding, although I'm sure it happens, but rather for showing off the work that was prepared beforehand. Usually these works are multimedia, so visuals and sound go together, but the main focus is the visuals, the rest of it is supportive. Works are nominated in different categories, w…

> It's a kind of a coding competition, indeed.

This is referring to demo parties specifically. Let's not forget the social aspects of them though. Yes, a selected few went to parties to "compete" in their chosen art, some might have even taken them quite seriously. But they were the minority.

The bulk of the attendees just went for fun and company, and did not create anything. Demoparties _were indeed_ parties back in the 90s, with people playing games, drinking and socializing in general. You could argue these were like rave parties, only a bit quieter and much friendlier / inclusive (ok, maybe I am biased, but it certainly felt that way).

It was lacking in one aspect though - not many girls attended, and so as time passed these parties were becoming less attractive. But that did not stop anyone going home and downloading and admiring the products of demosceners, who did all this basically in their free time, for not much (if at all) compensation.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#95
In my experience the old computer nerd communities don't do much to help get young people that would be interested into it. A lot of the discussion online mainly just consists of reminiscing about how amazing the '80s were.

Documentation is also in something of a state—the big video game consoles (NES, SNES, Genesis..) all have plenty of free, modern high quality guides teaching you how to program them from nothing, understand all the hardware, etc.. then look at the '80s computers (*especially* the Amiga) and it seems to mainly be scattered around old book scans and wiki articles assuming varying levels of pre-existing knowledge of the hardware. Strangely enough a lot of the best documentation seems to be from YouTube tutorials (I guess because you can see what they're actually doing). It sounds wrong to call it "stuck in the past" but I guess that would be the best way to describe it.

This isn't really about the scene specifically but it's somewhat related at least.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#96
i've attended a (very small and local) demo presentation and Q&A once and, of course, asked whether the demo scene was dead. the presenter said the demo scene has been declared dead for years already.

that was probably over 15 years ago.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#97

Perhaps its the lack of appeal, in the past, the idea that you could squeeze performance into an old machine was cool, but the gap between current hardware and "demoscene limits" feels like artificially crippling: if you have 64GB of ram, the appeal of 64KB demo is far less than if you have a 64MB 486DX. It would be far more cooler, that instead of ancient hardware and artifically limited PCs, they would run demoscen…

The problem with 64kb intros is not the availability of 64gb of ram, it's that the level of work for something really impressive requires you to have a really advanced toolset, and even then there are stumbling blocks.

The stuff I've written for 64k intros:

- Rendering system (software renderers in the 90s and latest a non-RTX raytracing systems with global illumination), these alone is kinda what people write or wrote MSc thesis works on.

- SDF based effects/rendering (this is what 4k intros often focus on apart from music, here it becomes an addition to the above toolset).

- Often some keyframing/skinning systems, either customized or imported from Blender(now) or in the past 3dsmax, lightwave,etc. (and matching the keyframing maths of the tools), the kind of shit that made game industry companies adopt 3rd party engines because it's hard to get correct (luckily for demos with small teams we can avoid some pitfalls of the formats).

- A modular softsynth (with sequenceing, genrerators and filters) with a MDCT based compressor (think MP3 like compression)

- Texture and image via generators and filters.

- A few generations of visual editing tools to have visual editing of various things listed above.

(Yes, some people have created more abstract things in 64k intros but those don't push the envelope as much imho).

Oh and once all that is done, nobody will run it because...

- The exe compressors used to make things small have been adopted by malware writers and antivirus programs will flag everything because antivirus software just profiles the unpacker routines.

(4k writers have less of an issue with this because the 64k compressors are more drop-in whilst crinkler that's used for 4k's is a custom linker that will have less of a profile and requires custom build steps).

As for Raspberry PI's, there has been compos to target them and phones but the capability of a Raspberry PI and phones is close enough to a PC that you're not really constrained in any pracitcal way apart from needing to push it onto that machine.

On that tangent however Pico-8 and similar pseudoconsoles have been popular since they often provide a simple IDE environment that let's people get straight to it and have a clear recgonizable restriction level.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#98
post #91

Physically, demos and game development have advanced far beyond where they were at the beginning of the demoscene, but now people no longer come together. Game engines and devices have become accessible to everyone, and people are constantly inventing new things. For example, just look at the number of algorithms and new gameplay mechanics now compared to 10 years ago. In 2012, I created a live coding platform and sp…

I don't really think it's fair to compare game engines with the demoscene. The demoscene is really about exploiting hardware to the fullest extent and that's not really an economic advantage when you get new GPUs every year that are 50% to 30% faster. now, creative hacks can increase performance several hundred percent, but is this sustainable for a product? probably not. certain hacks are very specific and that reduces your market. they’re usually non-portable, fragile, or locked to very specific architectures. That doesn’t scale across consoles, PC variants, or mobile. So in a market context, the value of raw ingenuity is absorbed into engine pipelines or middleware, not showcased in standalone demos.

Now that is to say a demo can't be portable, for instance I've run several older demos on my computer. I've also had instances where demos wouldn't run on my computer. Imagine if that was a game that I bought. Or imagine if it was anstracted to such a point that the feature is just not available dynamically. For instance of particle effect became 100 times less impressive.

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#99
post #28
post #15

"The scene is dead" has become a meme by now. For example the "new talent" Meteoriks award is introduced with "For a scene that has been dead since 1999, our walking dead are pretty fresh". It is well alive. Sure, we still see some of the same people from 1989, and the average age is certainly going up, but it absolutely doesn't mean we aren't seeing new blood. Styles change, technical achievement is usually seen in…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFXIGHOElrE https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=59105

Revision 2012 though...

Re: The demo scene is dying, but that's alright

#100

In my experience the old computer nerd communities don't do much to help get young people that would be interested into it. A lot of the discussion online mainly just consists of reminiscing about how amazing the '80s were. Documentation is also in something of a state—the big video game consoles (NES, SNES, Genesis..) all have plenty of free, modern high quality guides teaching you how to program them from nothing,…

the 80's were amazing :-)
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