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Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

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Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#281
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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With the current political climate, I think we are more likely to find the Health Department promoting cigarettes as a healthy way to relax.

Or at least take protection money for not talking down certain brands.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#282
post #164

There is research correlating autism and mothers taking certain medications (painkillers, antidepressants). Since autism is hereditary, there is a significant chance that these mothers are autistic too. Autistic people have a vastly high risk of depression, and often have unusual pain thresholds, requiring more painkillers. I would not be surprised of the correlation was real, but the direction of action was reversed…

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Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#283

It is the safest painkiller currently available. Ibuprofen can cause gut bleeding and renal issues if overdosed on. We all know about opiates. Some facts - typical adult dose is 1g. Max suggested cap on the drug label is 3g per day (about 6 pills at usual 500mg dose). You need to take 10g (20 pills) to be at real risk of hepatotoxicity. So 10 times the typical dose is when you have overdose effects. (basically 20 pil…

> We all know about opiates No, I do not think we do, because it causes none of the side-effects associated with NSAIDs, and it is even safer than acetaminophen, i.e. there is no risk of hepatotoxicity whatsoever. The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue, it matters as so much as liver failure matters with acetaminophen overdoses. Opiates are safer than…

Abuse and misuse of opiates is the key problem though. "Just don't abuse them" isn't a solution. As far as I understand, ibuprofen and acetaminophen are not addictive, while opiates are.

Opiates are only the best option if we ignore addiction, but we can't seriously do that.

AFAICT, I don't tend toward addiction, but I would much prefer ibuprofen or acetaminophen over opiates; I know that I can use those responsibly and not overdose and damage my gut or my liver, but I don't have the same confidence toward opiates. Not to mention I can't get opiates without a prescription, while the others are available OTC. I'm not going to go to the doctor to get an opiates script just for a headache or minor-injury pain.

I've been prescribed codeine before after minor surgery, and I was fine from the not-getting-addicted perspective, but wow does that drug mess with your brain. Sure, I'm not going to deprive myself of an effective painkiller when I really need it, but I'd rather not be in a fuzzy mental state if the pain is manageable with something else.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the response. Kennedy didn't say "factor" or "metabolic syndrome", he said "I see these kids that are just overburdened with mitochondrial challenges". If all he meant was that many kids are visibly overweight, wouldn't he have just said that?

The charitable interpretation is that it is simply a more sensitive and accurate way to say that. It puts aside all the big is beautiful and similar takes and points to the fact that many American kids, especially those in certain parts of the country are now afflicted with metabolic syndrome (which is closely associated with mitochondrial disfunction). It is well-known that overloading mitochondria with sugar is qui…

Have you heard the term “sanewashing”? I don’t think the principle of charity requires us to replace false things he did say with thematically similar things that might have been reasonable. It’s like “explaining” that a crystal healer is just referring to the stress reduction benefits of aesthetically pleasing knickknacks.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#285

Judging from the comments I've seen, nobody believes this because RFK has completely shot his credibility, and I don't blame them either. But it turns out there may actually be some emerging evidence to support this. This recent Harvard meta-analysis [1] from just last month looked at 46 different studies and suggested that there may actually be something happening here although it's not conclusive. Correlation but n…

> Nobody should be making policy on this yet

Maybe we should. We're talking about pregnant women and autism, along with taking a different painkiller. And if the theory is wrong, it'll only take a few years to find out, presumably.

For people who don't have children: most medical advice regarding pregnant women and infants is overwhelmingly cautious and errs on the side of, "if we don't have enough studies confirming it's 100% safe, it's better to stick to the less questionably safe way." I'm not sure why this would be any different.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#286
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me put this a bit differently: Type 2 diabetes is both genetic and can be acquired during one's life (e.g. through bad dietary choices). But a man who develops diabetes does not acquire genetic T2D by doing so - he cannot pass it on directly to his children.

You could get a Nobel prize or two by proving this statement. How we pass on acquired traits to offspring is not well understood at all. We know there’s a mechanism, but not how it works or how selective it is.

So having rehabilitated the Luddites, HN is now moving on to Lysenko. Peachy.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue I like this point because it is complete gibberish. If you simply do not mention the side effect that makes a drug lethal, it sounds a lot like the drug does not have lethal side effects. Obviously we cannot do that with acetaminophen though, we must talk about hepatoxicity when it comes to that drug. On the one…

You misunderstood me, then. Therapeutic doses of opiates do not cause respiratory depression, overdoses do, similarly to how acetaminophen overdoses cause hepatotoxicity, except this is not true, because regular consumption of acetaminophen causes hepatotoxicity, too, whereas opiates, when taken as prescribed, do not cause respiratory depression, in case of opiates, ONLY overdoses do, and therein lies the huge differ…

I think you're missing the point, though. Patients are much more likely to abuse/misuse an opiate, leading to much more than the "therapeutic" dose being taken. But most people aren't going to overdose on ibuprofen or acetaminophen. If they do, it's because they've made a foolish decision ("the pain didn't go away with one pill, so if I take five maybe it will"). When it comes to opiates, taking too much will generally be because of a chemical dependence, not a conscious choice. Even if the ibuprofen overdose is a stupid choice, it's still a conscious one.

> regular consumption of acetaminophen causes hepatotoxicity, too

That would be misuse/abuse, though. The bottle label tells you to seek a doctor's advice if you need to take it longer than a certain period of time. Sure, people can fail to read that and not know about it, or just choose that the risk of complications is acceptable given their pain situation, but that's still not as bad as chemical dependence driving the decision-making.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should ban opiates or never prescribe them, and I imagine the result of the backlash toward decades of over-prescribing has been a foolish swing to the other extreme. But I still don't think we should prefer opiates over ibuprofen/acetaminophen when the latter will do the job. Maybe that's not what you were arguing, but I do take issue with your suggestion that opiates are safer.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#288

It is the safest painkiller currently available. Ibuprofen can cause gut bleeding and renal issues if overdosed on. We all know about opiates. Some facts - typical adult dose is 1g. Max suggested cap on the drug label is 3g per day (about 6 pills at usual 500mg dose). You need to take 10g (20 pills) to be at real risk of hepatotoxicity. So 10 times the typical dose is when you have overdose effects. (basically 20 pil…

I'm sorry but as a non American I can only think about Rehab Officer Tylenol Jones from the Idiocracy movie since that's the first time I heard about Tylenol without knowing it's a drug, and in the movie everyone had well known American brands as their names due to overreach of corporate marketing into society, but that part of the satire went over my head as a European kid back then, thinking Tylenol was just a pers…

>I wonder if Americans know how much of their society and culture bled incompletely into other countries via movies.

the unbridled joy when a non american sees a red Solo cup irl for the first time

"i thought it was just a thing in movies!!"

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Check out epigenetics. "Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene expression that occur without altering the underlying DNA sequence. These changes, also known as epigenetic modifications, affect how genes are turned "on" or "off" and are influenced by factors like environment, lifestyle, and aging."

Himalayan rabbits having black fur where their skin is cold and white fur where it's warm is a useful and obvious example of this.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not talking about medicines, we are talking about some that is frequently ingested/exposed to people. Things like plastics, additives, pesticides, EM signal. These are novel chemicals/radiation and are potentially slow toxins and showing a causal link from population studies is near impossible.

....nnno? We are primarily talking about Tylenol. Paracetamol. Acetaminophen. Perhaps you need to be reminded of the whole sentence you quoted from my post, rather than just the first subclause? > Until there are reputable studies that can actually show something resembling a causal link, getting angry at the medical community, pharmaceutical manufacturers, or vaccine makes for saying they are not responsible is poin…

>Perhaps you need to be reminded of the whole sentence you quoted from my post, rather than just the first subclause?

My mistake, I did not quote your original comment correctly.:

I meant to quote:

>Could it perhaps be related to the increases in various kinds of air pollution? Water pollution? Pesticides or herbicides in our foods? Or even the dramatic increase in EM signals being broadcast everywhere?

>This is bullshit. We do not know what causes autism. We certainly do not have any compelling evidence that anything the medical community is doing is causing autism.

I would not put it past them. Harmful until proven otherwise is the approach I would take with most drugs/vaccines in the market out there, today. There is no third party testing for any drug/vaccine today - so pharma is free to manipulate the stats, and they have done it in the past.

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