Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn • Hacker News Board

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#141

Post by paulerdos » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 4:19 AM UTC

misnome wrote: post #6

paulerdos wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to know who to believe. The journalist who has something to gain by exaggerating the suffering of the workers, or the company which has much more to gain by hiding the suffering. The truth is somewhere in between. Based on the Foxconn on-the-job-site suicide rate being significantly higher than other on-the-job-site suicide rates (important to compare apples-with-apples, no pun intended), the truth probabl…

If you are comparing apples-to-apples, then surely you should weight your statement on who to believe by how easy it is for each person to exaggerate/hide. It's super easy for a journalist to exaggerate something like this, with relatively little risk for a massive gain. On the other hand, a "Company" hiding things involves many, many more people involved in the conspiracy, and the penalty for failure isn't really th…

You raise a seemingly valid point. But, your data seems to be different than mine. Many companies, especially large multi-national ones have an excellent track record of media manipulation and the ability to successfully hide massive problems. Think about how rare whistle blowers are. Easy example that I was personally affected by: Vioxx from Merck where Merck knew about the problems with the drug but pushed it through anyway and got away with it for years. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6192603/ns/health-arthritis/t/re... . Think about big tobacco, think about Chiquita and its activities in Columbia, think about Dow Chemical/Union Carbide...

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#142

Post by sapuser » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 5:06 AM UTC

Some of the commentary is sad.

Injustice is injustice no matter where it happens.

The reality is that masses of people in third world countries are exploited and they don't have very many options to do otherwise. The governments and multinational companies are very interested in maintaining this status quo -- that is how you can earn billion (get cheap labor for low costs and sell at high prices).

Apple doesn't sell their products at 1/5th the price in the US to reflect the local rates (for that matter most things like a Mercedes would sell for the same international price). The point is that a large section of world population is denied many benefits simply because where they are (think about the quality of medical treatment in the US vs a place like China or India or Uganda).

It is in one's interest to ensure access to all such services/products at low cost (subsidized by someone else) while ensuring comparatively high compensation due to residence in a first world nation.

Hopefully the inequity will grow smaller over time.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#143

Post by csense » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 5:19 AM UTC

tatsuke95 wrote: post #38

terhechte wrote: post #2

After the mess that was the last Apple Foxconn story, and with all the economic pressure that affects newspapers & news media, it becomes increasingly difficult for me to believe stories like these. It's not that I don't suppose that there're bad working conditions at Foxconn - there probably are. No, it's that even if the journalist in this story managed to sneak in, and work there, he probably added tons of hyperbo…

> "I really think it's hard to believe journalists these days, especially if the stories are unheard of and outrageous." You really think piss-poor working conditions in Second-World factories are "unheard of and outrageous"? It's been going on for centuries. Sure, this story was impeccably timed, and I'm sure there are liberties taken here and there, but that's because running a magazine/newspaper is a business. Tha…

> centuries

"Industrialization of China did occur on a significant scale only from the 1950s, in the Maoist Great Leap Forward." [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution_in_China

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#144

Post by rimantas » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 5:50 AM UTC

Vivtek wrote: post #79

deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical. From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict…

  > Apple is the most successful business in history.

So if Foxconn were to make products for lame business all that would be OK?

  > They have literally billions of dollars in the bank.
  > The fact that they have reached this position by
  > exploiting international labor

Ok, if Apple did that by "exploiting international labour", how come other companies doing the same on the same factory are not that successful?

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#145

Post by pm90 » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 6:06 AM UTC

aes256 wrote: post #80

adaml_623 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person writing the article is trying to change the working conditions in that factory (also in other factories). They are doing this by finding out the conditions and pointing them out at an opportune moment in time. They are trying to get Apple to put pressure on Foxconn. It's irrelevant if Foxconn is twice as good as other companies. Sounds like they could be 3 times as good and still need improvement. HN is fu…

> This person is trying to use media coverage of the iPhone 5 to help people directly. Good on them. Is it really helping them, though? Improving working conditions and the wellbeing of employees costs money. Put pressure on Apple/Foxconn to spend more on labor in China and there'll come a point where they just move production elsewhere, leaving these Chinese people without any jobs. Let's not forget these people are…

>Let's not forget these people are working in these factories voluntarily. The working conditions might be a bit crap, but the employees are choosing to endure them at their current wage.

Because they have no choice. The alternative is starving. You have to understand that spreading awareness is the first step in actually solving this problem. That's how working conditions improved in the west, and that is how they'll improve in China.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#146

Post by pm90 » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 6:14 AM UTC

deelowe wrote: post #87

bkmartin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is like looking at steel mill conditions in the early 1900's in Pittsburgh and the people on wall street saying... "Well, why are they pissed? Its not like its slavery." Just because other Chinese working conditions suck doesn't mean that its right. Yeah, so maybe the pay isn't as high because the cost of living is lower, but that doesn't mean you treat people like crap when they are making you filthy…

No, it's like looking at a steel mill in the 1900's and pointing the finger at our government to do something about it. Which we did and it got fixed. Resolution didn't come from journalists going around bashing all the companies that purchased US steel. Resolution came from the government enacting better labor laws. Also, it wasn't just steel. It was steel, oil, coal and many other industries. Which, I'd argue is th…

The situations are similar not same

Unfortunately, the Chinese govt. is not the same as the US govt., w.r.t how it treats its own people. So appealing to their govt. will not work. Appealing to Apple might?

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#147

Post by pm90 » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 6:22 AM UTC

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #44

bmj wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This link ( http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57389858-1/are-any-smart... ) is from earlier in the year, so I'm not sure how applicable it is these days.

Does anyone have any knowledge of whether Taiwan, Malaysia or Korea are likely to provide better conditions?

Korea is a developed country and does provide good working conditions. I think Samsung phones are Made in Korea? Not sure though... they might be "assembled in Korea"

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#148

Post by Tyrannosaurs » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 3:58 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #114

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why's it hypocrisy? Simply doing nothing is only hypocritical if that's contrary to other actions or statements I make.

Doing nothing as an action is hypocritical because it's not really an action. You're declaring you are trying to do something [to rectify that which you object to], but in fact are not doing anything. It's like a politician saying "i'm going on a fact-finding mission to resolve this issue of pollution of the watershed", when in fact they have no intent of finding any facts or solving any issues. But it sounds nice. I…

Doing nothing is an action if it's a concious decision rather than just idleness.

You need to distinguish "I believe there are things I can do but I'm not doing them" (which is hypocrisy) with "I've thought about it and I don't think there is any meaningful action I can take" (which isn't).

I think I'm in the second camp. I may be wrong in my assessment of the situation and what I can do, but if that's true it's misguided rather than hypocrisy.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#149

Post by lexarchy » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

jrwoodruff wrote: post #94

deelowe wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Injustice means one thing for me and another for someone living in China. I have no idea what the standard of living is over there for a typical factory worker. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Foxconn could be a pioneer of beter living and working conditions for the country and I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a first world view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doin…

Injustice means one thing for me and another for a negro. I have no idea what the standard of living is for typical negros. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Confederate cotton farmers could be a pioneer of better living and working conditions for negros I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a Union view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, bu…

It's not necessarily ridiculous. Unless you are very unusual and have sought out independent primary sources (i.e., not sources assigned by a professor), everything, and I mean everything, you think you know about slavery in the American South has been filtered through the minds and pens of abolitionists and their intellectual descendants. You convict slaveholders based on the prosecution's arguments alone, not only without hearing from the defense, but without being aware that there's even a trial.

None of this is a defense of slavery. It is a defense of careful, rational, deliberative thought—no matter the subject.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#150

Post by lexarchy » Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 6:58 PM UTC

Vivtek wrote: post #116

philwelch wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Exploit" is an ambiguous term, but in context it's clear what he meant to convey by it.

Is it? Perhaps you could explicitly state what you believe I meant to convey.

Exploitation is not a neutral term in this context. By using it, you implied that there is something unfair, unjust even, about Foxconn's (and, by implication, Apple's) treatment of its workers.