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Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

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Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#111

Post by philwelch »

MiguelHudnandez wrote: post #108
philwelch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions... Exploitation is not a fact; it's a judgment.

The negative connotations for the word "exploit" (1) are baggage. The word itself does not require a negative interpretation. Indeed, for the actions of a corporation, failure to exploit is damning evidence of incompetence. (1) https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aexploit

"Exploit" is an ambiguous term, but in context it's clear what he meant to convey by it.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#112

Post by error54 »

SeanDav wrote: post #88
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

and what is/was wrong with slavery, after all every one was doing it and probably slaves on plantations had better living conditions than the people they came from living in the bush... Don't blame the poor plantation owners, they are just doing the same thing as all the others.... Sheesh, until now I never realized it was possible to have your head so far up your ass it ended up buried in the sand...

> and what is/was wrong with slavery

Seriously?

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#113

Post by philwelch »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #24

Anyone who has significant issues with this needs to stop buying anything marked made in China. There are some interesting bits in there from the perspective of understanding the manufacturing process, but in terms of the worker conditions and so on, it's nothing new and anyone for whom this is news has presumably been hiding under a rock for the last couple of years and making a concious effort not to think about ho…

And then what? Foxconn lays off all their workers and they go back to whatever conditions it was (subsistence farming, maybe?) that led them to decide that working at Foxconn was a better choice for them?

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#114

Post by peterwwillis »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #105
peterwwillis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...Which is why the first option in my philosophy is accepting the hypocrisy. I actually am totally fine with slave labor because it's much easier than the latter option: doing something about it.

Why's it hypocrisy? Simply doing nothing is only hypocritical if that's contrary to other actions or statements I make.

Doing nothing as an action is hypocritical because it's not really an action. You're declaring you are trying to do something [to rectify that which you object to], but in fact are not doing anything. It's like a politician saying "i'm going on a fact-finding mission to resolve this issue of pollution of the watershed", when in fact they have no intent of finding any facts or solving any issues. But it sounds nice.

I guess my point is I find embracing consumerism at the expense of cheap labor to be more honest than refusing to admit my role in not being a solution.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#115

Post by Vivtek »

philwelch wrote: post #106
Vivtek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical. From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict…

> The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions... Exploitation is not a fact; it's a judgment.

Exploitation of a resource is a fact. Treating human beings as an exploitable resource is also a fact - it's the very basis of modern management.

If it has negative connotations, perhaps you should examine why you feel so negatively about it.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#116

Post by Vivtek »

philwelch wrote: post #111
MiguelHudnandez wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative connotations for the word "exploit" (1) are baggage. The word itself does not require a negative interpretation. Indeed, for the actions of a corporation, failure to exploit is damning evidence of incompetence. (1) https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aexploit

"Exploit" is an ambiguous term, but in context it's clear what he meant to convey by it.

Is it? Perhaps you could explicitly state what you believe I meant to convey.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#117

Post by Vivtek »

philwelch wrote: post #107
jrwoodruff wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Injustice means one thing for me and another for a negro. I have no idea what the standard of living is for typical negros. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Confederate cotton farmers could be a pioneer of better living and working conditions for negros I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a Union view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, bu…

You're comparing impoverished people taking jobs of their own free will to chattel slavery?

If, as you say, they're impoverished, how free is their will?

Are they 90% free? 50%?

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#118

Post by mseebach »

Vivtek wrote: post #117
philwelch wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing impoverished people taking jobs of their own free will to chattel slavery?

If, as you say, they're impoverished, how free is their will? Are they 90% free? 50%?

100%. It's not the number or attractiveness of options that make you unfree, it's the guy with the rifle who shoots you if you "quit".

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#119

Post by knwang »

jonknee wrote: post #83
knwang wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just want to point out that merely "being Chinese" does not make the journalist as qualified as you may think. Think it like some journalist in NYC working for a major media company goes to some manufacturing plant in the Midwest, finding people are doing hard work under not good enough conditions. And that'll give some perspectives.

The OP made a big deal about how it's different in China so we can't compare directly. My point is that this is a Chinese national who lives in China and has actually worked at the plant. Regardless of journalistic pedigree, the writer is vastly more capable of writing an honest story from the Chinese perspective than a Western journalist or the OP. A NY Times reporter covering poor working conditions in a meat packi…

>> My point is that this is a Chinese national who lives in China and has actually worked at the plant. Regardless of journalistic pedigree, the writer is vastly more capable of writing an honest story from the Chinese perspective than a Western journalist or the OP.

I actually agree. What I wanted to point out is for the reader of the story to keep in mind that the writer is a white collar Shanghai journalist, and would inevitably come with his frame of references because of it. For a NYT journalist living in NY, I believe most Western readers will assume a liberal bias, and view the reporting through some lenses, but the sophistication towards China probably stops at the reporter being a "Chinese Journalist".

Sure, the writer is more qualified than you and me, but he didn't answer some critical questions - is this factory above or below average in Chinese manufacturing plants? Is Foxconn raising or lowering labor standards in the area? Is Foxconn providing better alternatives to local labor, who may have to make a living by going down a tunnel in a coal mine or planting rice under the sun? Is having the plant there better or worth than not having the plant there?

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#120

Post by jlmendezbonini »

I recommended everyone to watch this TED talk:

http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_t_chang_the_voices_of_china_...

"In the ongoing debate about globalization, what's been missing is the voices of workers -- the millions of people who migrate to factories in China and other emerging countries to make goods sold all over the world. Reporter Leslie T. Chang sought out women who work in one of China's booming megacities, and tells their stories."

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