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I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#71

Post by blitzar »

sillyfluke wrote: post #66
jillesvangurp wrote: post #21

Electric Vehicle Man on Youtube did a review of a 2000 pound second hand Renault Zoe that he picked up a few weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEvwtxGeVpQ The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market…

Don't really follow the secondhand EV market, but it seems to me firsthand buyers are still taking on considerable risk due to the range situation. People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full. Following this advice, one person I know told me if they drive like they did their old car they have to recharge after roughly 170 miles, which is super annoying for them…

> recharge after roughly 170 miles ... these cars won't be dead weight or dirt cheap

The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances.

You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#72

Post by KaiserPro »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #21

Electric Vehicle Man on Youtube did a review of a 2000 pound second hand Renault Zoe that he picked up a few weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEvwtxGeVpQ The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market…

Yeah that was basically my assesment.

I bought a second hand Zoe in the UK mainly because they are so common, which means parts should be still around for a while yet.

the leaf was an option, and I could have bought and upgraded the battery on an old one, but I think on balance the zoe was a better purchase for the same combined price. (for me, your mileage may vary)

In terms of practicality, for where I live (suburban, edge of a large city) it works perfectly well. We also fairly regularly do longer journeys, assuming its not getaway rush hour, charging is fine on motorways and crucially getting better

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#73

Post by masklinn »

rsynnott wrote: post #63
lucideer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based, but I still really felt he could've highlighted that fact more in that charging port standards section. The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.

> The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the on…

> The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_

Right but that’s the most important one. If you have a leaf it means you know you need an adapter always, so while it’s a bit of a hassle to waste space on that there’s no question whether you’ll get a compatible charging plug.

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#74

Post by theshrike79 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #12
Xenoamorphous wrote: post #4

* Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days * Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable * Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards * Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I…

If you think this is what puts you off EVs, then you haven't read the horror stories from EV Clinic. TL;DR is many EVs and hybrids (especially European ones) have tonnes of design faults with e-motors and power-electronics that not only make them ticking time bombs(not in the explosive sense) out of warranty, but also have malicious DRM making third party parts impossible to source, and repairs difficult and eye wate…

Hybrids are a different breed, they're very very bad. Don't ever buy one out of warranty and be REALLY sure what the warranty covers.

FYI: Mercedes Benz hybrids have a full(*) battery warranty. What's the asterisk you ask? The warranty only covers repairs up to the car's current value. Which has plummeted over the few years you've owned it and the cost of the battery is absolutely ridiculous. Like "buy 3 used Leafs" ridiculous.

Most hybrid batteries are also blobs of molten plastic and silicone that can't be repaired at all. EV batteries are constructed of semi-standard cells and can be opened and repaired piecemeal by specialist shops. Official repairs usually just swap the whole thing - again for a massive cost.

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#75

Post by KaiserPro »

Xenoamorphous wrote: post #4

* Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days * Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable * Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards * Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I…

All of those problems are solved in non-leaf cars.

The leaf is a terrible steward if its battery. virtually every other car is better in virtually every single way.

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#76

Post by masklinn »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #68
masklinn wrote: post #25

> Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze. Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandator…

It's not a lack of standards, it was an early proliferation of standards. Chademo is still standard in Japan. Also, given his comparison to the ease of the old way, in Europe at least it's fairly standard to know someone who has filled their hire car with diesel (or not diesel) by mistake. They have warning stickers on the filler flap because it happens so often. Meanwhile knowing someone who uses the inexplicably mo…

A big difference is that if you go to a gas station you’ll have both (and possibly more). At least in Europe. So while you need to fill with the right fuel unless the pump is broken or the tanks are empty the fuel you need will be available.

In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#77

Post by KaiserPro »

jagermo wrote: post #20

Huh, i see a bunch of used Renault Zoes for about 5k or less in my area. I wonder if they hold up as well.

Zoes are fine, so long as they have fast charge and are the last generation (52kwhr)

The software is pretty shit. Lagging and annoying. But apple/android play stops that.

As a car its smooth, quiet, and fast if you need to be. The only annoyance driving wise is that it doesn't have adaptive cruise control, and the reverse/drive/neutral switch always returns to the middle, so you can't tell what mode its set to without looking at it

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#78

Post by formerly_proven »

Hamuko wrote: post #57
lucideer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based, but I still really felt he could've highlighted that fact more in that charging port standards section. The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.

Go to your local Mitsubishi dealership in Europe and you will find the 2025 Outlander PHEV with a CHAdeMO plug. And I believe if you buy a pre-2019 Tesla Model S or Model X, you will have to deal with Tesla's own plug.

I'm guessing it skirts regulations by being a PHEV, since CCS2 is mandatory for DCFC otherwise. Skirting regulations is quite fitting for a PHEV, of course, as that is their raison d'etre.

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#79

Post by potato3732842 »

blitzar wrote: post #71
sillyfluke wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't really follow the secondhand EV market, but it seems to me firsthand buyers are still taking on considerable risk due to the range situation. People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full. Following this advice, one person I know told me if they drive like they did their old car they have to recharge after roughly 170 miles, which is super annoying for them…

> recharge after roughly 170 miles ... these cars won't be dead weight or dirt cheap The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances. You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.

You can screech about averages and means all you want but the fact of the matter is that if you're exceeding your vehicle's capabilities on a weekly or monthly basis the inconvenience of ownership goes up exponentially. I do 100mi/day but I all but need the ability to make that 200 on a weekly basis and am doing a 300 on a monthly basis. With charging at work and home those numbers become 50, 150 and 250 between charges. So a "nicer" electric car is doable in the summer for me but it still falls on its face when those longer trips involve substantial cargo.

So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.

For people who just want a dedicated commuting vehicle used EVs with 80% battery are a pretty good option.

Re: I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

#80

Post by formerly_proven »

guepe wrote: post #13
Xenoamorphous wrote: post #4

* Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days * Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable * Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards * Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I…

This is completely avoided and not my experience. This is only because the leaf is not actively cooled. Most ev do not suffer from such difficult management of battery and have a computer dedicated to cool / heat and keep battery in healthy temps. They do degrade over time but very, very slowly. Absolutely not like phones. Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.

Even then the Leaf stands out with seemingly unusually high battery degradation compared to the uncooled battery competitors from 2014.
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