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Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

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Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#21

Post by beagle3 »

bjarkijonasson wrote: post #7
bjarkijonasson wrote: post #6

As someone who is currently in a school that uses only free and/or open source software I have to say that this is a terrible idea. The biggest problem is the teachers, they are not as tech-savvy as the kids and introducing them to a completely new operating system has done nothing but slow them down and cause problems. They are having trouble distributing learning material because they are not familiar with the file…

also, it doesn't save the school any money anyway since they have to hire Network Admins and other IT people with Linux experience

I would expect the cost per seat (os + office at least) to be in the order of $100 if there are a lot of discounts involved, possibly as high as $400. That's a lot of money upfront.

It might not save in the support cost, I agree - but barring a (potentially uncomfortable) transition period, it shouldn't cost more either.

It is my experience (from industry) that a competent Linux admin can support about 10 times as many machines as a competent Windows admin, but only costs 2-3 times as much; However, competent linux admins are much harder to find.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#22

Post by zby »

brudgers wrote: post #13

Because OS and application support scales in ways that reduce marginal costs, claims that desktop rollouts of Linux ultimately entail a substantial financial benefit are dubious. The pool of Linux expertise is smaller and thus basic support tends to be more expensive than an OEM version of Windows. For example, Ubuntu or Redhat support starts a $70-$100 per user per year versus $150 or so for OEM Windows.

Hmm - I don't parse that - how $70-$100 is more then $150? Or did I misinterpret something?

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#23

Post by jstalin »

drats wrote: post #17
jstalin wrote: post #15

As someone who uses Ubuntu as my main desktop OS, I still find myself going back to a Windows machine or Windows VM to use MS Office. I'm no Microsoft fanboy, but Office is still far and above better than anything available on linux. I've been beta testing office 2013 and I have to say, I love it. There's no chance of moving away from it any time soon, as far as I can tell.

Other than compatibility with other people I don't find MS Office has many advantages, but I will concede it is better designed, especially when you have to pay for it. Compatibility is the huge killer argument for Office and will remain so for some time. All that said, for high school level essays, slides, spreadsheets, where you are not really interfacing with government or businesses, then the argument for OpenOff…

For high school, maybe, but even the simple charts and graphs in Excel are visually pleasing. In openoffice, or even google docs, they're hideous and usually unworkable.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#24

Post by mogrim »

javierhonduco wrote: post #10

As a spaniard *nix lover who has finished high school recently, I'd like to point out something... 0K, there are lots of installations, but being honest, among the students is very impopular, almost all of them have always been using Window$ at home... Also there are a few teachers that even know what Linux of whatever different to Microsoft's software is. That shoudn't be like that IMHO. Lots of economical (among ot…

That's an exaggeration - I live and work in Spain, and do a fair amount of work with public administration clients, and they definitely do know about open source software, both Linux and Open Office etc.

There's certainly a high level of ignorance amongst teachers as to what OS they're using, but that mirrors society in general - and in most cases if you give them a system that works, with the software they need, they'll learn it pretty fast. I don't think they're "hooked up" to Windows in particular, I get the feeling the word "Windows" basically means "operating system", it's a generic word without any real tie to Microsoft.

What I do find surprising is the number of computers per school, in Andalucia - 110 workstations per school? Seems like a lot, and knowing the local politicians it wouldn't surprise me if 50% (or more) of them weren't "virtual"...

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#25

Post by brudgers »

zby wrote: post #22
brudgers wrote: post #13

Because OS and application support scales in ways that reduce marginal costs, claims that desktop rollouts of Linux ultimately entail a substantial financial benefit are dubious. The pool of Linux expertise is smaller and thus basic support tends to be more expensive than an OEM version of Windows. For example, Ubuntu or Redhat support starts a $70-$100 per user per year versus $150 or so for OEM Windows.

Hmm - I don't parse that - how $70-$100 is more then $150? Or did I misinterpret something?

https://www.redhat.com/apps/store/desktop/

http://www.ubuntu.com/business/desktop#services

On the other hand, Windows comes with pretty good self support for the end user out of the box via multiple professionally developed and maintained channels.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#26

Post by dysoco »

bjarkijonasson wrote: post #6

As someone who is currently in a school that uses only free and/or open source software I have to say that this is a terrible idea. The biggest problem is the teachers, they are not as tech-savvy as the kids and introducing them to a completely new operating system has done nothing but slow them down and cause problems. They are having trouble distributing learning material because they are not familiar with the file…

I agree, we used Guadalinex, but it was an old version, and it was crappy... buggy, didn't work correctly: the settings keep reseting.

Even for worse... no one in the school had the Root password... oh, the horror.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#27

Post by Adirael »

bjarkijonasson wrote: post #7
bjarkijonasson wrote: post #6

As someone who is currently in a school that uses only free and/or open source software I have to say that this is a terrible idea. The biggest problem is the teachers, they are not as tech-savvy as the kids and introducing them to a completely new operating system has done nothing but slow them down and cause problems. They are having trouble distributing learning material because they are not familiar with the file…

also, it doesn't save the school any money anyway since they have to hire Network Admins and other IT people with Linux experience

Network admins are network admins. And IT people with Linux experience doesn't have to be expensier than Windows IT people. IT people here study both, salaries are shitty everywhere.

My high school (2005 IIRC) had guadalinex [1] on all computers, with a 2:1 student to computer ratio and no in house IT. Students basically use Firefox, OpenOffice and some other apps for math and psychics, there's not a lot that can go wrong and nothing is so important that you need a person always on site.

[1] http://www.guadalinex.org/

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#28

Post by fmoralesc »

calinet6 wrote: post #11
oliwarner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don't need anything but a browser these days Sure, assuming you only want the next generation of young adults to be able to look things up on Google and use Facebook. When my school tried to teach me how to use MS Word (I was 13) I laughed. I already knew everything there was to know about it. Of course none of this was innate, nor did I know it just because I was young. Eight years earlier when I was having m…

Ahem. Google Docs? MS Office Web Apps? Etc? There's quite literally an app or site for almost everything on the internet. It's great that you think your curiosity and drive for knowledge is somehow unique in this world, but I suspect you're wrong and just have a damn-kids-get-off-my-lawn mentality. The web has only made knowledge and possibility more accessible, not less, and it's naïve to think that it's a dumbed-do…

Can you script google docs? That's how I "played with my word processor" when I was a kid (I was a bookish kid and read every manual in my computer; turns out many were about VB scripting and the Windows API... I was intrigued). I suspect many more did. If people had access only to web apps, they couldn't have those kind of experiences; I think that's what the parent commenter points to. Now, I don't actually think these kind of things are becoming extinct, or anything like that: it's easier in many ways nowadays. But the web by itself still has some way to go to fully provide them, also because it is so huge. I've started to rant, so I'll end here.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#29

Post by icebraining »

fmoralesc wrote: post #28
calinet6 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahem. Google Docs? MS Office Web Apps? Etc? There's quite literally an app or site for almost everything on the internet. It's great that you think your curiosity and drive for knowledge is somehow unique in this world, but I suspect you're wrong and just have a damn-kids-get-off-my-lawn mentality. The web has only made knowledge and possibility more accessible, not less, and it's naïve to think that it's a dumbed-do…

Can you script google docs? That's how I "played with my word processor" when I was a kid (I was a bookish kid and read every manual in my computer; turns out many were about VB scripting and the Windows API... I was intrigued ). I suspect many more did. If people had access only to web apps, they couldn't have those kind of experiences; I think that's what the parent commenter points to. Now, I don't actually think…

Can you script google docs?

Yes: https://developers.google.com/apps-script/overview

By the way, I started programming in '99, and since I didn't have a computer at the time, I learned JavaScript, since I could run it on IE4 on public machines. So yes, a browser (and, I guess, Notepad) is really all you need!

Besides, since then and between PHP/Python/etc shared hosting and tools like Codeanywhere (which can talk to S/FTP servers), a web browser is enough for building web applications.

(Of course, the web is far from reaching the potential of desktop development, of course. But it has come a long way already)

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#30

Post by fmoralesc »

icebraining wrote: post #29
fmoralesc wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you script google docs? That's how I "played with my word processor" when I was a kid (I was a bookish kid and read every manual in my computer; turns out many were about VB scripting and the Windows API... I was intrigued ). I suspect many more did. If people had access only to web apps, they couldn't have those kind of experiences; I think that's what the parent commenter points to. Now, I don't actually think…

Can you script google docs? Yes: https://developers.google.com/apps-script/overview By the way, I started programming in '99, and since I didn't have a computer at the time, I learned JavaScript, since I could run it on IE4 on public machines. So yes, a browser (and, I guess, Notepad) is really all you need! Besides, since then and between PHP/Python/etc shared hosting and tools like Codeanywhere (which can talk to S…

> Yes.

Neat! I eat my thoughts (It's the kind of thing I miss by using vim for almost everything).

EDIT: But it is a separate app...

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