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Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

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Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#11

Post by calinet6 »

oliwarner wrote: post #8
calinet6 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dependency on anyone, really. Good for the governments sure, but even better for the kids. It almost doesn't matter—they don't need anything but a browser these days.

> they don't need anything but a browser these days Sure, assuming you only want the next generation of young adults to be able to look things up on Google and use Facebook. When my school tried to teach me how to use MS Word (I was 13) I laughed. I already knew everything there was to know about it. Of course none of this was innate, nor did I know it just because I was young. Eight years earlier when I was having m…

Ahem. Google Docs? MS Office Web Apps? Etc?

There's quite literally an app or site for almost everything on the internet.

It's great that you think your curiosity and drive for knowledge is somehow unique in this world, but I suspect you're wrong and just have a damn-kids-get-off-my-lawn mentality. The web has only made knowledge and possibility more accessible, not less, and it's naïve to think that it's a dumbed-down version of the "incredible software" you grew up using.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#12

Post by zalew »

bjarkijonasson wrote: post #6

As someone who is currently in a school that uses only free and/or open source software I have to say that this is a terrible idea. The biggest problem is the teachers, they are not as tech-savvy as the kids and introducing them to a completely new operating system has done nothing but slow them down and cause problems. They are having trouble distributing learning material because they are not familiar with the file…

> The biggest problem is the teachers, they are not as tech-savvy as the kids and introducing them to a completely new operating system has done nothing but slow them down and cause problems

it's a chicken and egg problem. the only way to solve it is to make the first move, otherwise in 10 years we'll be in the exact same situation.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#13

Post by brudgers »

Because OS and application support scales in ways that reduce marginal costs, claims that desktop rollouts of Linux ultimately entail a substantial financial benefit are dubious. The pool of Linux expertise is smaller and thus basic support tends to be more expensive than an OEM version of Windows. For example, Ubuntu or Redhat support starts a $70-$100 per user per year versus $150 or so for OEM Windows.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#14

Post by publicroman »

As an andalusian, am I always surprised how the government manages to set Spain among the most important countries in open source with these kind of measures, yet no real developing force or user community. The (software) education quality and the very high unemployment should be a very good broth for entrepreneurial, open source and tech-creative initiatives, but it isn't (unless you are subsidized by the government). Such a waste of talent. I'd better not think about it.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#15

Post by jstalin »

As someone who uses Ubuntu as my main desktop OS, I still find myself going back to a Windows machine or Windows VM to use MS Office. I'm no Microsoft fanboy, but Office is still far and above better than anything available on linux. I've been beta testing office 2013 and I have to say, I love it. There's no chance of moving away from it any time soon, as far as I can tell.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#16

Post by RobAley »

brudgers wrote: post #13

Because OS and application support scales in ways that reduce marginal costs, claims that desktop rollouts of Linux ultimately entail a substantial financial benefit are dubious. The pool of Linux expertise is smaller and thus basic support tends to be more expensive than an OEM version of Windows. For example, Ubuntu or Redhat support starts a $70-$100 per user per year versus $150 or so for OEM Windows.

Bear in mind that most large scale public organisations primarily rely on either internal IT staff or external contractors (as opposed to the OS/application vendor) for user-facing support for both Windows and Linux. The scale & cost of that support is pretty much OS independent. Minimal training is required for front-line support of Linux for someone with experience of Windows support, something akin to the training required for a new version of Windows.

Central provisioning, deployment and higher level support costs are centralised and do not scale as fast as user facing support. These areas are typically contracted out to (or supported by) the OS/app vendors, and such cost is a smaller part of the deployment/maintenance costs.

Large enterprises perhaps do not work in this manor and have often have direct per-seat support from vendors, but public organisation are generally organised as I outline above (at least over here in Europe).

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#17

Post by drats »

jstalin wrote: post #15

As someone who uses Ubuntu as my main desktop OS, I still find myself going back to a Windows machine or Windows VM to use MS Office. I'm no Microsoft fanboy, but Office is still far and above better than anything available on linux. I've been beta testing office 2013 and I have to say, I love it. There's no chance of moving away from it any time soon, as far as I can tell.

Other than compatibility with other people I don't find MS Office has many advantages, but I will concede it is better designed, especially when you have to pay for it. Compatibility is the huge killer argument for Office and will remain so for some time.

All that said, for high school level essays, slides, spreadsheets, where you are not really interfacing with government or businesses, then the argument for OpenOffice is overwhelming. Even more so when your government can't even afford to borrow on the open markets. I.e. no private investor in the entire world thinks you are credibly going to pay back what you borrow. In that case you have to go to political allies who are prepared to shoulder the costs, for political and not economic reasons, and it might be a good idea to take the 90%-as-good free office package for your school students to contain costs.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#18

Post by RobAley »

bjarkijonasson wrote: post #6

As someone who is currently in a school that uses only free and/or open source software I have to say that this is a terrible idea. The biggest problem is the teachers, they are not as tech-savvy as the kids and introducing them to a completely new operating system has done nothing but slow them down and cause problems. They are having trouble distributing learning material because they are not familiar with the file…

That sounds more like problems with the deployment rather than the use of OSS.

The other day I chatted to a governor of one of our local secondary schools, which recently upgraded from Windows XP to Windows 7. As you note, the teachers aren't always tech savy and many who primarily used computers at school (on XP until then) struggled with Windows 7. Compatibility with very old Word docs created on the old systems was a problem (solved by using LibreOffice on one of the staffs personal laptops as the IT contractors wouldn't allow it to be installed on the system), and pupils/parents who use OSX at home also sometimes have difficulty with homework assignments when particular software and/or formats are required.

The trouble is we live in a more and more diverse computing society. Windows is no longer the dominant OS, OSX and to a lesser degree Linux (and iOS and Android etc. etc.) are becoming more and more prevalent.

The general solution, is either to a) invest in training for teachers and design curricula to be OS/vendor neutral, or b) standardise (if one must) on an OS/app ecosystem that both the school and parents can deploy and support (which apart from private schools with moneyed parents) means a free OS.

Re: Ubuntu Reaches 220,000 PCs in Schools in Spain

#19

Post by JVIDEL »

Linux always had this "hardcore PC dude" image that made it look like you needed a PhD to use it, but with Ubuntu the fact is 95% of PC users can switch painlessly and even have a better overall experience.

The other 5% are those that need certain specific apps that have no real equivalent on Linux, but as more users switch developers will port those apps, just look at Valve.

But one problem that is more complex than most people think are governments: those that get the most from free software are governments from poor and developing countries, but when you go there you find that most of those governments use Windows and even bought the classmate netbooks from Wintel instead of the OLPC or even regular netbooks with other Linux distros.

Now, this might not be the case with every country but there are reports of corruption in the process. Can't say if Microsoft or Intel are actually paying bribes, but there's proof of middlemen and officials from governments of those countries choosing Windows above Linux because that way they can easily inflate the cost and get a bigger cut from the government contract.

It's no different from public works going way out of budget: most of the time is because someone is stealing money.

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