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I miss using em dashes

bassi.li

101–110 of 167 posts

Re: I miss using em dashes

#101
post #78
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually, as models and their users both improve, we'll collectively realize that trying to reliably discriminate between AI and human writing is no different than reading tea leaves. We should judge content based on its intrinsic value, not its provenance. There are zillions of words produced every second, your time is the most valuable resource you have, and actually existing LLM output (as opposed to some theo…

Putting aside the claim that "LLM output [...] is almost always not worth reading"[1], the whole issue here is that this supposed ability of determining whether or not content is AI-generated doesn't exist. Is it really a valuable life skill to decide whether or not you want to read something based solely on its density of em dashes? Of course there are cases where you can tell that some text is almost certainly LLM…

> 1: You're assuming a specific type of output in a specific type of context. If LLM output were never worth reading, ChatGPT would have no users.

I think nobody is upset about reading an LLM's output when they are directly interacting with a tool that produces such output, such as ChatGPT or Copilot.

The problem is when they are reading/watching stuff in the wild and it suddenly becomes clear it was generated by AI rather than by another human being. Again, not in a context of "this pull request contains code generated by an LLM" (expected) but "this article or book was partly or completely generated by an LLM" (unexpected and likely unwanted).

Re: I miss using em dashes

#103
post #19

I wouldn't worry about it. A year ago the red flag du jour was "delve"; this year it's em dashes; next year it'll be something else. In any case, this is a very online topic that I assume only a vocal minority are hung up on in the first place. If you picked a random person off the street and asked for their thoughts on em dashes, you'd probably get a blank stare. Eventually, as models and their users both improve, w…

>A year ago the red flag du jour was "delve"

"delve" was a red flag 650 years ago!

When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman? — Fr John Ball's sermon addressing the rebels of the Peasant's Revolt, 1381

Re: I miss using em dashes

#104
post #100
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really a valuable life skill to decide whether or not you want to read something based solely on its density of em dashes? Having good heuristics to make quick judgements is a valuable life skill. If you don't, you're going to get swamped. > Would any of that somehow be more worth reading if the author posted a video of themselves carefully typing it up by hand? No, but the volume of carefully hand-typed junk…

Having good heuristics is a valuable life skill. Presence of standard punctuation is not a good heuristic.

If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid.

Re: I miss using em dashes

#105
post #100
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really a valuable life skill to decide whether or not you want to read something based solely on its density of em dashes? Having good heuristics to make quick judgements is a valuable life skill. If you don't, you're going to get swamped. > Would any of that somehow be more worth reading if the author posted a video of themselves carefully typing it up by hand? No, but the volume of carefully hand-typed junk…

Having good heuristics is a valuable life skill. Presence of standard punctuation is not a good heuristic.

This seems like begging the question to me.

Why do you think it's not a good heuristic to be able to quickly spot the tell-tale signs of LLM involvement, before you've wasted time reading slop?

Yes, there will be false positives. It's a heuristic after all.

Re: I miss using em dashes

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point. I'll admit that LLM em-dash usage likely matches its prevalence in the corpus. However, online message boards and chat is a subset of that corpus that may have a significantly different distribution of em-dash prevalence. This is necessary nuance that I'll have take into consideration. Thank you.

Eh, I wasn't trying to put you on blast or anything. Obviously there is a lot of nuance to how/why the LLM uses them. I just think the whole "em dash == AI" thing is stupid and way overblown. I wish the people who say that would realize it obviously learned them from somewhere.

You're good, friend. I didn't feel blasted at all. It was a good point

Re: I miss using em dashes

#107
Personally, I think little litmus tests like usage of a certain word or punctuation are stupid, and it's impossible to tell what is or isn't ai generated. I think people just use it as a convenient excuse to dismiss anything they personally dislike or disagree with as "ai slop."

Re: I miss using em dashes

#108
post #87
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you picked a random person off the street and asked for their thoughts on em dashes, you'd probably get a blank stare. But the people you will reach online will be online, and not some random person-off-the-street. The average person on the street will give the same blank stare on the topic of compilers, regular expressions, black-holes, or robotics, but I still want to read about those topics. And if I want an L…

Approximately everyone is online. What percentage of those people do you think are even familiar with the meme that em dashes == LLM assistance, much less feel strongly enough to complain or attack you over your punctuation choices?

[deleted]

Re: I miss using em dashes

#109

I'm calling it now: within a year, somehow a trend will appear where writers will perform their duties under voluntary video surveillance showing the human's face, fingers and screen contents (possibly by multiple cameras) to "prove" they did it on their own. This video will be too voluminous or intrusive to be viewed manually, so it will be analyzed by (you guessed it) AI to determine if the work was authentic. It w…

Great way to make it easy to identify your password based on the sound the keys make as you press them. It's already doable IIRC, but it would be much easier if people were uploading tons of video of themselves typing.

Re: I miss using em dashes

#110

I'd switch to semicolons, but I need to re-read this book to be sure I'm using them correctly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

I 100% agree. I hear a lot of pushback from em dash lovers on the semicolon; if you can learn to love an em dash, you can learn to use and love a semicolon. Remember, meaning is based on common usage, so now em dash is slop-nonymous, semicolons can take on a more casual vibe. For example: I love pizza — it's my comfort food. Can just become: I love pizza; it's my comfort food. For asides: I love pizza — especially pe…

I also love pizza, it's my comfort food. You see a problem here?
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