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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#221

Post by shakna »

judge2020 wrote: post #198
shakna wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have that today. And locked down systems don't prevent it, because you can always exploit some part of the supply chain. A determined actor will always find a path.

Right now you'd need a zero-day bootrom exploit to do something like this - still a possibility for the average high-level intelligence operative, but not the average white collar citizen. The proposal is making such a thing a feature.

Stuxnet did not require a bootrom zero day. Just people's propensity to plug in USB devices out of curiosity.

You don't need the NSA to target someone and replace their device with a malware driven one. Just a porch pirate and your own delivery - two to three years and you're almost guaranteed an attack window.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#222

Post by OmarAssadi »

cm2012 wrote: post #211
ranyume wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why shouldn’t Netflix have the right to choose who they distribute content to? power asymmetry

There are dozens of sources of online streaming entertainment, and its not exactly a vital good.

Sure, Netflix may not be as important as, say, housing, food, or whatever else, but I think there is something to be said about the cultural importance of [at the very least some] film and television.

There's a lot of media worth studying, analyzing, and preserving. And in that sense, between the constant churn of catalog items, exclusive content, and the egregious DRM, I think these sorts of streaming services are, unfortunately, kind of harmful.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#223

Post by pishpash »

JeremyNT wrote: post #216
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

This is the crux of the matter. Maybe conceptually you will be able to run some kind of open operating system with your own code, but it will be unable to access software or services provided by corporate or governmental entities. This has been obvious for some time, and as soon as passkeys started popping up the endgame became clear. Pleading to the government definitely can't save us now though, because they want t…

Should have made open-source components in some key nodes of the ecosystem popular and profitable. But that was a tall order.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#224

Post by kibwen »

JeremyNT wrote: post #216
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

This is the crux of the matter. Maybe conceptually you will be able to run some kind of open operating system with your own code, but it will be unable to access software or services provided by corporate or governmental entities. This has been obvious for some time, and as soon as passkeys started popping up the endgame became clear. Pleading to the government definitely can't save us now though, because they want t…

> Maybe conceptually you will be able to run some kind of open operating system with your own code

Why do you think they would even allow this? If you think that governments don't have the incentives or the means to criminalize running non-approved OSes, or the unauthorized use of non-approved hardware, you're insufficiently cynical.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#225

Post by throw10920 »

ranyume wrote: post #210
wisty wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, the law provides patent, copyright, trade mark, and NDA protection. While it would be a burden to require a degree of openness, it's not like companies are all rugged individualists who would never want to see legal restrictions in the field. It's just a question of what is overall best and fairest. Restrictions can both help and hinder innovation, and it's innovation that in the ling run makes things impro…

>Restrictions can both help and hinder innovation I'm not sure innovation is really impacted when restricting the private sector. Traditionally, innovation happens in public (e.g, universities) or military spaces.

This is extremely dubious. There are hundreds (thousands?) of examples of innovation happening in the private sector - I could name the blue LED off the top of my head, and got personal computers, search engines, smartphones, cloud computing, and integrated circuits with less than a minute of searching.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#226

Post by Almondsetat »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #114
Almondsetat wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the user cannot be trusted to maintain the hardware and software, then the only responsible thing is to rely on the manufacturer to do so. In those cases, if the support is dropped you buy the newest device.

What if that is the newest device?

What if the only hospice in town closes down and your grandma is there? What if Mozilla or Linux die out and the only browsers/OSs that remain are proprietary? You find alternatives or make do, like all aspects of life.

You can't expect services and organizations to last forever, there is always some risk they'll collapse when you are around.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#227

Post by markus_zhang »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

Arguing doesn’t work for principles.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#229

Post by makeitdouble »

throwaway31131 wrote: post #192
makeitdouble wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google and Apple have more power than most nations. To push further, Google and Apple have basically as much power as the US. The UK going after Apple, only to get rebutted by the US is the most simple instance of it. International treaties pushed by the US strongly protecting it's top corporations is the more standard behavior. Any entity fighting the duopoly is effectively getting into a fight with the US.

> To push further, Google and Apple have basically as much power as the US. If this is true then why is Tim Cook visiting Trump? Shouldn’t it be the other way around.

The power dynamic between the gifter and the giftee isn't that simple. Even bribes dynamics will change a lot depending on who does it and to which amount.

There is a whole antropologic field around that, but to keep it short, if you pay your palace and all expenses with the money funneled to you as gifts, you're not the one in control.

Fun read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#230

Post by chairmansteve »

fastaguy88 wrote: post #207
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

Really not a libertarian, but why shouldn’t Netflix have the right to choose who they distribute content to? They negotiated conditions with the creators, why shouldn’t they be able to specify the DRM? No one is forcing you to subscribe to Netflix. Or even to buy an iPad.

A non libertarian might ask: Is it good for society?
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