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AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

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Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#71
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These models are extremely unreliable when unsupervised. > It doesn't feel like that will change fundamentally with just incrementally better training. I could list several things that I thought wouldn't get better with more training and then got better with more training. I don't have any hope left that LLMs will hit a wall soon. Also, LLMs don't need to be better programmers than you are, they only need to be goo…

No matter how much better they get, I don't see any actual sign of intelligence , do you? There is a lot of handwaving around the definition of intelligence in this context, of course. My definition would be actual on the job learning and reliability i don't need to second guess every time. I might be wrong, but those 2 requirements seem not compatible with current approach/hardware limitations.

Intelligence doesn't matter. To quote "Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies":

> There is an important sense, however, in which chess-playing AI turned out to be a lesser triumph than many imagined it would be. It was once supposed, perhaps not unreasonably, that in order for a computer to play chess at grandmaster level, it would have to be endowed with a high degree of general intelligence.

The same thing might happen with LLMs and software engineering: LLMs will not be considered "intelligent" and software engineering will no longer be thought of as something requiring "actual intelligence".

Yes, current models can't replace software engineers. But they are getting better at it with every release. And they don't need to be as good as actual software engineers to replace them.

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#72
post #3

Brutal that software engineering went from one of the least automatable jobs to a job that is universally agreed to be "most exposed to automation". Was good while it lasted though.

Too bad engineers were “too important” to unionize because their/our labor is “too special .” I think you could find 10,000 quotes from HN alone why SDEs were immune to labor market struggles that would need a union Oh well, good luck everyone.

Unions can only prevent automation up to a point. Really the only thing that could have reasonably prevented this would have been for programmers to not produce as much freely accessible training data (formerly known as "open source software").

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#73
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cashiers should not, and will not prevent theft. They're not paid nearly enough to get in danger, and it is not their job. I'm sure you can find videos of thefts in San Francisco if you need a visual demonstration. No cashier is going to jump in front of someone to stop a theft.

True, but having a cashier standing there waiting to scan your items will prevent most normal people from stealing. Sure, some will brazenly walk right past with a TV on their shoulder, but most people won't. If there's no cashier and you're doing it yourself, a whole lot more people will "forget" to scan a couple items, and that adds up.

There's usually a security person or two in the store, looking over the self checkouts. I agree that job prevents a lot of people from becoming opportunistic thiefs, but I'm making a distinction between cashiers and security. Today the store needs both.

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#74

Every day when I am out in the city, I am amazed by how many jobs we have NOT managed to replace with AI yet. For example, cashiers. There are still many people spending their lives dragging items over a scanner, reading a number from a screen, holding out their hand for the customer to put money in, and then sorting the coins into boxes. How hard can it be to automate that?

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Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#75
post #8

The accounting note is not true in the traditional sense. The field in the US is just getting offshored to India/PH/Eastern Europe for better or for worse. There is even a big push to lower the educational requirements to attain licensure in the US (Big 4 partners want more bodies and are destroying the pipeline for US students). Audit quality will continue to suffer and public filers will issue bunk financials if th…

This is exactly right. The H1B pipeline has not decreased at all whereas millions of American workers have been laid off.

Maybe for software engineering but not for accounting. I've had to interface with many offshored teams and interviewed at places where accounting ops were in COE centers in EU/APAC.

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all accounts, yes. "Model collapse" is a popular idea among the people who know nothing about AI, but it doesn't seem to be happening in real world. Dataset quality estimation shows no data quality drop over time, despite the estimates of "AI contamination" trickling up over time. Some data quality estimates show weak inverse effects (dataset quality is rising over time a little?), which is a mindfuck. The perform…

The jpeg compression argument is still valid. It's lossy compression at the core.

I don't think it is.

Sure, you can view an LLM as a lossy compression of its dataset. But people who make the comparison are either trying to imply a fundamental deficiency, a performance ceiling, or trying to link it to information theory. And frankly, I don't see a lot of those "hardcore information theory in application to modern ML" discussions around.

The "fundamental deficiency/performance ceiling" argument I don't buy at all.

We already know that LLMs use high level abstractions to process data - very much unlike traditional compression algorithms. And we already know how to use tricks like RL to teach a model tricks that its dataset doesn't - which is where an awful lot of recent performance improvements is coming from.

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#77

I’m suss about this paper when it makes this claim: “where AI is more likely to automate, rather than augment , human labor.” Where is AI currently automating human labor? Not Software Engineering. Or - what’s the difference between AI that augments me so I can do the job of three people and AI that “automates human labor”

I was also curious about this. Table A1 on page 56 lists examples of positions that are automated vs augmented, and these are the positions the authors think are going to be most augmented (allegedly taken from [0]):

- Chief Executives

- Maintenance and Repair Workers, General

- Registered Nurses

- Computer and Information Systems Managers

After skimming [0], I can't seem to find a listing of jobs that would be augmented vs automated, just a breakdown of the % of analyzed queries that were augmenting vs automating, so I'm a bit confused where this is coming from.

[0]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.04761

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#78
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jpeg compression argument is still valid. It's lossy compression at the core.

I don't think it is. Sure, you can view an LLM as a lossy compression of its dataset. But people who make the comparison are either trying to imply a fundamental deficiency, a performance ceiling, or trying to link it to information theory. And frankly, I don't see a lot of those "hardcore information theory in application to modern ML" discussions around. The "fundamental deficiency/performance ceiling" argument I d…

Sure, you can upscale a badly compressed jpeg using ai into something better looking.

Often the results will be great.

Sometimes the hallucinated details will not match the expectations.

I think this applies fundamentally to all of the LLM applications.

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#79
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how much better they get, I don't see any actual sign of intelligence , do you? There is a lot of handwaving around the definition of intelligence in this context, of course. My definition would be actual on the job learning and reliability i don't need to second guess every time. I might be wrong, but those 2 requirements seem not compatible with current approach/hardware limitations.

Intelligence doesn't matter. To quote "Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies": > There is an important sense, however, in which chess-playing AI turned out to be a lesser triumph than many imagined it would be. It was once supposed, perhaps not unreasonably, that in order for a computer to play chess at grandmaster level, it would have to be endowed with a high degree of general intelligence. The same thing m…

There is a reason chess was "solved" so fast. The game maps very nicely onto computers in general.

A grandmaster chess playing ai is not better at driving a car than my calculator from the 90s.

Re: AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

#80
post #16
post #8

The accounting note is not true in the traditional sense. The field in the US is just getting offshored to India/PH/Eastern Europe for better or for worse. There is even a big push to lower the educational requirements to attain licensure in the US (Big 4 partners want more bodies and are destroying the pipeline for US students). Audit quality will continue to suffer and public filers will issue bunk financials if th…

Yup, 95% of the AI hype is to apply pressure on the labor market and provide cover for offshoring/downsizing.

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