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The End of Handwriting

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Re: The End of Handwriting

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you know, almost all fountain pen nibs (sans some specialty ones) come with some tipping. This is a very hard alloy engineered to resist wear and tear. Some manufacturers have their own formulations and grinding characteristics, and some manufacturers use "default" versions supplied by the nib vendor. As the user writes, this tipping material starts to get polished. This can take from a couple of months (e.g. Lamy…

As a fellow fountain-pen enthusiast, I highly doubt this idea that the pen (and especially the nib) becomes "tuned" to your writing. I think it's either [a] placebo effect or [b] the other way around---the hand becomes "tuned" to the pen---or [c] it's more about the other parts of the pen (e.g., body, feed), and rarely, if ever at all, the nib. > This is a very hard alloy engineered to resist wear and tear. > As the…

Hey! Welcome. Let me respectfully disagree with you with my stained fingers.

I'm using fountain pens as my primary writing instrument for more than 15 years now. My familiarity with these marvelous things go back even longer than that. So, I believe I know a couple of things, probably not much as you, about them.

First let me start with the polishing issue. Not all paper is same, and even smooth paper is very abrasive in its nature. You can actually slowly polish a fountain pen nib with a coarse brown bag. If you want to do it faster, you can use a micromesh (which I'm too coward to use). If you search Fountain Pen Network, there are tons of resources how to work with both.

If I understood it correctly, you said that the nib is not made of an alloy that can resist wear and tear. Yes, that's true. Today's nibs are mostly steel or gold alloys. However tips of said nibs are different. If you want to watch how Lamy's nibs are made in house, you can watch [0]. The link I shared starts right at the nib production and finishing process.

I'll politely counter your wager about nib polishing with another anecdote. My father gave all his fountain pens to me since he's not using them anymore. One of them is used everyday for years, and he uses his pens at a slight angle. The well used pen writes scratchy when I hold it like my other pens, but writes buttery smooth when I hold like him. Another pen also exhibits this but to a lesser degree. Interestingly, when my father tries my pens, they write a bit scratchy because of his holding angle. The seldom used pens write smooth regardless of the holding angle (they are essentially new old stock).

Another interesting anecdote is between me and another pen enthusiast. I have a particular Lamy Safari which I use every day. Also, Lamy's tipping material is a bit softer than other manufacturers, so they polish faster. We tried a couple dozen pens that day. He took that Safari, wrote with it and said "this is a well tamed nib. did you polish it?". He didn't know that it was my EDC pen.

You said that your pen holding angle changes depending on what you write. Mine don't. I keep my pens at a very particular angle independent of what/how I write. So much that, my Metropolitan writes a little scratchy if I hold it too close to the nib, near the front end of the finger rest, and I don't even use pressure. But that pen is with me every day for more than six years (or more? IDK).

Another thing about nibs is flex (not like a flex nib, much more subtle) or breaking in, which is very apparent in Kaweco pens. That little, stubby bastards' nibs always start a little dry. After a couple pen flushes and with some writing, they start to break in. They start to write the way it should after a couple of weeks generally. When they find their tune, they write pretty dependable though. Lastly, Montblanc says their nibs need a couple of weeks before reaching their true performance. I want to experience this some time in the future, but I can't today.

A well-used nib doesn't exhibit a Lamy 2000 like "narrow sweet spot", the angle doesn't get narrower, but that sweet spot develops a sweeter spot if you write at the same angle after some point, depending on the tipping material and geometry.

I mean, I have a lot of pens, and I can distinguish between an unused nib and a well used one on the same body and same ink just from the feel for it.

I'd love to continue this friendly discussion. Heck if I had a macro lens, I'd happily share close up photos of the said nibs, so we can learn together, but alas.

I'm not afraid of fountain pens, or second hand pens in general. I got myself a nice Pilot Elite from a pen show this year. I need to fix its nib (it's a bit loose), but it's a well used buddy with a buttery smooth gold nib.

[0]: https://youtu.be/2jf3lbhQR6I?t=98

Re: The End of Handwriting

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting comment. Esp. when there's concrete and mounting evidence for the benefits of it.

I continue to argue that if it were actually, practically useful, it would not be dying. People would just use it all the time because it is so useful. That's not the world we live in.

This is the problem of today's world in every level. We need to see "direct, immediate practical uses" of something, and if we can't, we deem it's not useful and start to phase it out.

Some people like to write their todo lists on paper, some on their phone. Some people journal to a notebook, some do it in an app. Because we think the usefulness of writing is only the things we write. We ignore its secondary effects.

Writing imposes a speed barrier to brain, slows down the thinking process, esp. if you are writing with a permanent pen (anything sans a pencil). This slowing down allows refinement of the thought, but since it happens automatically, we don't appreciate it. One can type thrice the speed they write. It'd be perfectly legible, but is it perfectly filtered? I strongly doubt that.

I find my ideas are fuller when I write, rather than type. I find my words are more powerful, sentences are shorter yet more meaningful and dense. When I can't quite collect an idea or something gets too scattered, typing it out doesn't help, but getting a paper and writing the idea out allows me to round it instantly.

On longer projects, I keep lab notebooks. I do my design + write my mental process down. This allows me to visit a decision and see why I did it, preventing future errors, plus I have a lessons learnt document. This doesn't work with a keyboard. I tried. Many times.

We humans don't know what we don't know. I didn't know the power of writing until I started doing it regularly. I didn't know how it benefited my concentration until I started to see the effects. I didn't know until I half-filled my first lab notebook and saw the thinking trail and I remembered everything without effort.

Our quest for efficiency and progress is both a blessing and a curse. We abandon things as useless we don't fully understand. Then we wonder about what happened to us. Writing is one of these things we don't fully understand and deem useless because we don't fully grasp what it does. People who understand its importance create things like ReMarkable which is used more and more around me.

I still prefer pen and paper, because I use permanent inks on posh paper, then label the notebooks and visit them when necessary. Less important things are typed on a keyboard, shared on a digital garden, but regardless of how hard I tried, typing away on a wonderfully crafted keyboard in an impeccable app is no substitute for writing, the brain processes writing triggers, the things it unearths or the ideas it allows to be born.

I think comparing a nebulae to a fusion reactor on earth is apt. While former are much more primitive, they form stars. While the latter has all the tech humans can offer, it just creates little sparks compared to the former.

So, we shan't bash things we don't understand fully, and shan't throw stones to others since we all live in houses made of glass.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I continue to argue that if it were actually, practically useful, it would not be dying. People would just use it all the time because it is so useful. That's not the world we live in.

This is the problem of today's world in every level. We need to see "direct, immediate practical uses" of something, and if we can't, we deem it's not useful and start to phase it out. Some people like to write their todo lists on paper, some on their phone. Some people journal to a notebook, some do it in an app. Because we think the usefulness of writing is only the things we write. We ignore its secondary effects.…

"Writing imposes a speed barrier to brain" sounds like a bad thing, period.

It's not like you can't impose a speed barrier at will. Plenty of writers or programmers spend time thinking, writing absolutely nothing - regardless of whether they use a mechanical keyboard or a goose feather quill. Humans aren't LLMs - nothing compels them to produce text at all times.

Plenty of writers and programmers also spend a lot of time cutting down and editing what they just wrote - to get sharper prose or more concise and understandable code. Which is NOT something that can be done with a goose quill.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, fountain pens have a "cool" factor and can be made for decorative stuff, but that's it. I would not disagree more. A fountain pen writes with zero pressure. In contrast modern rollerballs and gel pens have a little spring to prevent contact leaking. Uni might have a patent on that. Famously Pilot's Hi-Techpoint pens doesn't have that and it stains the place where it touches. A fountain pen can outlast any dispo…

I agree with you - the low/no pressure that a fountain pen writes with is important. However, I will say that decent rollerballs (eg UniBall Vision) require only the weight of the pen itself, which means there is very little difference from fountain pens (but not none).

Recently I restarted using my Vision Elite rollerball and Signo gel pen, because the last notebook's paper didn't play well with my fountain pens.

While I love these pens as well, they require a little bit more pressure than a fountain pen, and their difference becomes very apparent in long writing sessions.

Being said that, they're probably the best rollerballs and gel pens you can use, because of their pigmented inks and archival qualities. Plus their blue black is a nice color, and Vision Elite can actually shade while writing.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem of today's world in every level. We need to see "direct, immediate practical uses" of something, and if we can't, we deem it's not useful and start to phase it out. Some people like to write their todo lists on paper, some on their phone. Some people journal to a notebook, some do it in an app. Because we think the usefulness of writing is only the things we write. We ignore its secondary effects.…

"Writing imposes a speed barrier to brain" sounds like a bad thing, period. It's not like you can't impose a speed barrier at will. Plenty of writers or programmers spend time thinking, writing absolutely nothing - regardless of whether they use a mechanical keyboard or a goose feather quill. Humans aren't LLMs - nothing compels them to produce text at all times. Plenty of writers and programmers also spend a lot of…

Sorry, I don't know how to put it more politely, because I ran out of words. You sound like someone who refuses to believe that vitamins are healthy for the body, because the pills smell funny.

What you said is true though. I also spend some time not writing or typing anything but thinking, but I know where I want to arrive and trying to find a polite and concise path from where I am to the point I'm trying to arrive.

When I'm using pen and paper generally that arrival point is non-existent. IOW, I'm working on much harder problems and hacking a mental path towards somewhere I don't know, so I need to slow down, and chip away a problem step by step.

Some programmers go to a whiteboard, some talk with rubber duckies or their colleagues, to add an external speed brake to the process, because when you tend to think hard, the brain's speed brakes wear down. This is not myth, it's neuroscience. Adderall and Ritalin is used to add these speed brakes to people who born without them. This is a thing. Don't ask me how I know.

"Your first draft will be shit, edit until it makes sense" is the 0th rule of writing anything. What I do is writing that draft on paper, and editing in my mind. Then write the 5th or so draft to the computer.

This allows me to create what I want in less iterations in less time.

What you already said is also true. Humans are not LLMs. We're not copies of machines, or copies of each other, for that matter.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem of today's world in every level. We need to see "direct, immediate practical uses" of something, and if we can't, we deem it's not useful and start to phase it out. Some people like to write their todo lists on paper, some on their phone. Some people journal to a notebook, some do it in an app. Because we think the usefulness of writing is only the things we write. We ignore its secondary effects.…

"Writing imposes a speed barrier to brain" sounds like a bad thing, period. It's not like you can't impose a speed barrier at will. Plenty of writers or programmers spend time thinking, writing absolutely nothing - regardless of whether they use a mechanical keyboard or a goose feather quill. Humans aren't LLMs - nothing compels them to produce text at all times. Plenty of writers and programmers also spend a lot of…

> Plenty of writers and programmers also spend a lot of time cutting down and editing what they just wrote - to get sharper prose or more concise and understandable code. Which is NOT something that can be done with a goose quill.

Disagree. At least for prose, I do my best editing that way. (All right, not a goose quill - I use a ballpoint.)

I find it easier to draw a line through some text than to move the cursor to the start, hold down shift while moving to the end, then hitting backspace or delete. I find it easier to move some text from one place to another by drawing an arrow than by selecting the start, shift selecting the end, ctrl-x, move to the destination, then ctrl-c. And so on.

In short, pen and paper break my mental flow less, so I can put more uninterrupted brain onto the actual editing.

Now, sure, after I'm done with the editing, then I have to go to the actual file, find the start of that text to delete, hold down shift while I move to the end, and all that. But I'm not making the edit decisions while I do that.

This is just what works best for me. If it doesn't for you, that's fine. Don't use it.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#278
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m left handed, with the right ink and paper this isn’t a huge problem. I picked up fountain pens a year ago and I will never go back to regular pens for my own writing.

Left-to-right writing as a left-handed person involves a lot of pen(cil) pushing, which is a big no-go for fountain pens. If it works for you, I'm willing to bet you're twisting your hand in a D position (going over and around the cursor), which I sometimes see left-handed people do. I have cramps just watching that.

I have not seen the word "cursor" used that way. From context it sounds like it means "the point where the pen meets the page", which does fit in with the etymology of cursor ("a thing which runs").

But I couldn't find a dictionary which supported that definition. Is that your own coinage, or is it a jargon that I didn't know?

Re: The End of Handwriting

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating! Can anyone from other countries chime in?

For me, in Germany, it was always cursive from the beginning to the end of school. We learned to write in the first class of elementary school. I still only write cursive and cannot write any other style, by hand. And only with a fountain pen. The style I was taught is called "Lateinische Ausgangsschrift". At a catholic elementary school in NRW. If you are interested here is an overview of the different cursive style…

I'm now really confused. I've also been taught this type in german elementary school. But since after school cursive was thought of as children / school handwriting and not something adults should use in professional settings. Also the use of fountain pents was considered childish.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#280
post #10

PSA for people with "bad cursive handwriting" but who would like to improve it: Write with FOUNTAIN PENS. Ideally on thicker paper, with something soft below (like more paper for example). Different writing systems evolved alongside different utensils. Cursive evolved to be written with a quill or a fountain pen. Ballpoint pens are an amazing invention and they have their place, but they optimize for price and practi…

As a left handed person, fountain pens are basically a no-go. What actually helped improve my handwriting was not doing cursive, but writing each letter individually, which forces me to pause between each letter. Still using the lower case forms (though I did try all caps for a while), but just forcing myself to slow down. Still have problems with 9 vs 4 though

Lamy has left-handed nibs for their pens. So there are options.
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