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The End of Handwriting

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Re: The End of Handwriting

#261

Post by NoGravitas »

bayindirh wrote: post #63
tbrownaw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, fountain pens have a "cool" factor and can be made for decorative stuff, but that's it. Sure the super cheap bic pens that come in boxes of 100 aren't great, but that's because they're cheap (besides being inexpensive). Something like those G2 gel pens that are also available everywhere for not very much (fairly inexpensive, but not pejorative-cheap) these days work just fine.

> No, fountain pens have a "cool" factor and can be made for decorative stuff, but that's it. I would not disagree more. A fountain pen writes with zero pressure. In contrast modern rollerballs and gel pens have a little spring to prevent contact leaking. Uni might have a patent on that. Famously Pilot's Hi-Techpoint pens doesn't have that and it stains the place where it touches. A fountain pen can outlast any dispo…

I agree with you - the low/no pressure that a fountain pen writes with is important. However, I will say that decent rollerballs (eg UniBall Vision) require only the weight of the pen itself, which means there is very little difference from fountain pens (but not none).

Re: The End of Handwriting

#262

Post by NoGravitas »

adamsilkey wrote: post #209
elros wrote: post #10

PSA for people with "bad cursive handwriting" but who would like to improve it: Write with FOUNTAIN PENS. Ideally on thicker paper, with something soft below (like more paper for example). Different writing systems evolved alongside different utensils. Cursive evolved to be written with a quill or a fountain pen. Ballpoint pens are an amazing invention and they have their place, but they optimize for price and practi…

Any suggestions on how to get into fountain pens? I handwrite a lot, but fountain pens have always intimidated me.

Get a pack of Pilot Varsity disposable fountain pens. Just write with them, with no pressure. The cheapness and disposability means no reason to be intimidated. Then after you go through one pack of Varsities, buy a Pilot Metropolitan for about $20, and optionally a $10 piston-fill adapter and a bottle of ink. A Metropolitan is one of the cheapest "good enough" fountain pens.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#263

Post by ChickeNES »

StableAlkyne wrote: post #47
tbrownaw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, fountain pens have a "cool" factor and can be made for decorative stuff, but that's it. Sure the super cheap bic pens that come in boxes of 100 aren't great, but that's because they're cheap (besides being inexpensive). Something like those G2 gel pens that are also available everywhere for not very much (fairly inexpensive, but not pejorative-cheap) these days work just fine.

Fountains also feel incredibly good to write with once you find the right nib + pen + ink combo you prefer. Deliberate practice is the #1 way to get better at most skills, and making the activity feel good will encourage that: if it feels good to write, you'll probably be more deliberate when doing it and really think about the strokes you're making. Then you have a few "oh hey, if I do this with this part of the let…

See, here's what I don't get: Who wants to go through the trouble? Buying tons of nibs, pens, inks, and paper to find one I like, when I go months without even picking up a normal pencil or pen? I'm really curious what people are still writing by hands these days, especially where others would have the ability to comment on it. I don't think I've even used a pen for a signature in god knows, since all the doctor's offices, etc, these days either have touchscreens or email you the forms to fill out online. Are you writing for fun? Doing math? What am I missing here?

Re: The End of Handwriting

#264

Post by saltcured »

odyssey7 wrote: post #67

As a CS student, the way I learned things I needed to memorize was by writing it down / copying / summarizing on paper and studying from that. It’s a little ridiculous to reframe that a significant part of my education was an exercise in copying information over by hand, but it’s just true that this method reliably worked for me. Also: my reading speed was ungodly slow. I think I considered it typical to spend 3 hour…

I'm your opposite as the extremely sparse note-taker. I can use a notepad for writing down basic checklists but absolutely cannot take notes when learning. My main way of learning, and doing cognitive work in general, is of listening/absorbing, then ruminating and synthesizing my own new ideas later.

I wonder if my contrary experience is linked to my being mostly aphantasic and also lacking an internal monologue. Verbal input and output are activities I have to engage which takes me out of my default mode of thinking. And they are somewhat mutually-exclusive. Roughly speaking, it is like I have different mental postures for these. I think easily in a "resting" state. Figuratively, I have to "sit up" (for reading) or "stand up" (for listening). To write or speak, I go further into a variant "fighting" posture, e.g. getting myself centered and my reflexes cranked up more.

Also, I feel like anything I really learn is merged into my unified "world model" almost immediately or with a very short latency. But, I have very poor rote memory. I don't memorize what I hear or read. I extend my understanding and then can speak from that understanding later, in my own words. I do best when I can learn something abstractly and synthesize a bunch of related ideas from that understanding. I can infer my own abstractions, but I need to do so rapidly before I lose the examples being communicated.

I struggle when there is an expectation to memorize disconnected examples and defer the abstraction. If I don't generally understand new content in real-time as I listen or read, it is just noise. I cannot recall content I didn't understand in order to figure it out later. I only retain the meta-memory that I was exposed to and rejected some arbitrary noise...

Re: The End of Handwriting

#265

Post by bayindirh »

watwut wrote: post #250
bayindirh wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not try to refine what you have in your mind for a couple of cycles before putting it down to paper, or typing it out? Mind likes to run in circles with scissors at both hands and hurt itself while trying to think fast. Teaching it to walk slowly results in clearer and more refined results.

Not that person, but because there is an option to use a keyboard and easily edit, reread, reedir and again. As why go in circles in own head when I can be moving forward with keyboard.

In this age of keyboards, cloud computing and AI, we think being fast is better. We lost our patience, and want everything instantly. However, there are some processes which needs time.

Life is same everywhere. It makes the same trade-offs. Fast growing plants have less mass, they are less dense, and if they are edible, they're less delicious and nutritious.

However, hard woods, strong plants and nutritiously dense foods grow slowly. It's the same for ideas, and human mind.

When you let your brain draw circles on an idea, you start to prune its illogical parts. When you put a speed limiter with a pen, you force your brain to reconsider what it just said to you, and as a result, you get better, more refined ideas in less time actually.

I have written elsewhere. I design my programs, their architecture and algorithms on paper, with a fountain pen. I keep lab notebooks. This allows me to refine everything before hitting my first key on the keyboard. I iterate less, produce more. The algorithms I design come out already refined to a certain degree, and when combined with architectural knowledge, their first iteration come out performant and efficient.

Let me ask you the same question:

Why bang my hands and head to a keyboard while trying to solve a problem while I can solve it with a cup of tea, a nice pen and paper and create elegant code in one go and enjoy all parts of the process, and spend less time as a result?

Re: The End of Handwriting

#266

Post by 1718627440 »

bluGill wrote: post #238
1718627440 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pen is a tool not a machine, or does your pen have a motor?

What is the difference between tool and machine?

Whether there is a drive unit.

    tool + drive = machine
    machine + sensor = automaton
    automaton + decision = robot

Re: The End of Handwriting

#267

Post by hinkley »

cyocum wrote: post #111

I find these articles both baffling and frustrating at the same time. I find it frustrating because I spent recess after recess locked inside to practice cursive. After many months of this, my handwriting had not improved. The teachers finally relented and stopped punishing me because the punishment never actually improved my handwriting. My handwriting is now print only and is still horrible and has never improved.…

Have you ever tried a drawing or even a calligraphy class?

I worry your teachers have ruined you by trying to make your writing more artistic when they should have perhaps made you more artistic and let you bring the fine motor control back on your own.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#268

Post by hinkley »

noosphr wrote: post #144
cyocum wrote: post #111

I find these articles both baffling and frustrating at the same time. I find it frustrating because I spent recess after recess locked inside to practice cursive. After many months of this, my handwriting had not improved. The teachers finally relented and stopped punishing me because the punishment never actually improved my handwriting. My handwriting is now print only and is still horrible and has never improved.…

Cursive as taught in schools today is useless at best and dangerous for your health at worst. The cursive that made the world run between 1850 and 1925 was called business penmanship and it lets you write at 40 words per minute for 14 hours every day for decades on end without pain or injury. If you're interested here's the best book about it: https://archive.org/details/tamblyns-home-instructor-in-penm... Note the a…

Do they still teach cursive in school? I’m pretty sure I know a handful of college kids who never learned it.

Re: The End of Handwriting

#269

Post by hinkley »

taeric wrote: post #217
cyocum wrote: post #111

I find these articles both baffling and frustrating at the same time. I find it frustrating because I spent recess after recess locked inside to practice cursive. After many months of this, my handwriting had not improved. The teachers finally relented and stopped punishing me because the punishment never actually improved my handwriting. My handwriting is now print only and is still horrible and has never improved.…

I don't remember being punished for bad handwriting, but I know I got chided for it a lot. And I know we spent a lot of time on it. It definitely sucked, at every level of the experience. I also find it odd that people have some off assertions on why we learn cursive. I'm sure there is a multitude of reasons, but I find it hard to think it has any strong advantage over other ways. I do get a kick out of my kids being…

Disrespect from an authority figure is punishment unless you’re a sociopath.
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