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Good riddance, PayPal

elliotjaystocks.com

241–250 of 272 posts

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you fund a Kickstarter project, you're investing in the project. If it does not fully fund, you receive a refund from Kickstarter. If it does, your funds go to the project, who are on their best effort to successfully launch the project. You are NOT, however, directly purchasing a reward. You receive a reward as a gift for helping to fund at a given level.

Are you unable to read? The T&C, as quoted, very clearly states that the project creator is required to fulfil the reward or they must refund the backer.

And for those backers not at a reward level?

But you ignore the bigger problem. How are you, as a Backer, able to require a refund because a Project breached its terms with Kickstarter?

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking to see some personal references and a personal background check is one thing. But requring a 'natural person' to become personally liable for a corporate contract is basically equivalent to denying the corporation. So maybe the bank is willing to issue the merchant account to the individual with the understanding that it may be used by a corporation. But let's not call it something it isn't.

You said it earlier: requiring a personal guarantee is indeed the equivalent of denying the account to the corporation. I'm not sure what else there is to talk about, unless you think contracts for merchant accounts should be compulsory.

I'm not sure what else there is to talk about, unless you think contracts for merchant accounts should be compulsory.

Completely automatic is obviously silly because of the fraud risk, but a presumption in favour and/or formal restrictions on acceptable criteria for refusal aren't nearly as absurd as you're implying.

We're talking about a very closed industry and a service that, in practice, directly affects people's ability to trade.

We regulate service providers in other essential industries, and they can't deny provision to a customer just because they don't like them. It's part of the deal if you want to operate in those markets.

And there are all kinds of laws to prevent or restrict one-sided deals that inhibit people's ability to trade. There are laws about monopolies and anti-competitive behaviour. The handling of non-compete agreements in employment law would be another obvious example in a slightly different context.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the status quo seems to me like a situation in which an entrepreneur can't start an honest corporation without putting his kids' college savings at risk of highly unpredictable fraud loss. And to add insult to injury, that kind of risk is entirely the fault of the payment industry itself, for failing to implement sufficiently robust security measures. And yet, the merchant typically carries the risk, not the paym…

Merchant account providers are not in the insurance business. If you're starting a business and worried that your own product failures are going to bankrupt you, pay for insurance. It seems to me at this point that we've lost track of what a merchant account provider even does, and that your argument in some way depends on the fact that it's easier for large companies to bear losses than small ones, and so they shoul…

Merchant account providers are not in the insurance business.

Really? I think there's a good argument that insurance is exactly the business they are in.

The fundamental difficulty here is that money you think you have as a merchant can be taken away again retrospectively, and the merchant account provider is on the hook for it if the merchant disappears. The merchant account provider accepts that risk, but takes steps such as retaining partial funds that will normally be sufficient to mitigate it. Every now and then they'll take a big hit when there's a spectacular failure and whatever guarantees the merchant account provider thought they had turn out not to be worth enough to cover the loss. Most of the time, however, things will go fine and the merchant account provider will make a tidy margin.

How is this not an insurance model?

If you're starting a business and worried that your own product failures are going to bankrupt you, pay for insurance.

I'm not worried about my product failures, I'm worried about fraud due to a combination of their insufficient security and their rather generous waiting periods for customer complaints, or simply due to a mistake on their part.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it earlier: requiring a personal guarantee is indeed the equivalent of denying the account to the corporation. I'm not sure what else there is to talk about, unless you think contracts for merchant accounts should be compulsory.

I'm not sure what else there is to talk about, unless you think contracts for merchant accounts should be compulsory. Completely automatic is obviously silly because of the fraud risk, but a presumption in favour and/or formal restrictions on acceptable criteria for refusal aren't nearly as absurd as you're implying. We're talking about a very closed industry and a service that, in practice, directly affects people's…

The "service providers" in those other "essential industries" that can't "deny provision" because they "don't like them" have, as a general rule, been granted monopolies. This is a silly conversation. The system that works the way you seem to want it to is the subject the thread; it's Paypal.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#245
Just my yow cents...I received 3+k in my PayPal acct around 3mon ago. I was shocked next day that my acct was freezed and when I called PayPal I was told to provide PROOF OF DELIVERY to have mt acct unlimited...ok, so I did...the misery just started...a week later my acct was still frozen and I decided to call again...another chick with a distant,lazy voice stressed I would need PROOF OF RECEPT to unlimit my acct...you know how long it takes for a sea freight from china to the states I escalated to a inexperienced supervisor...to no avail of course...so I have to wait another month for the shipment to arrive, and then I called again in urgency...guess what? No luck, I went thru a few more chicks only to realize they never wanted to be honest with me to unlimit my acct because THEY WANT THE MONEY FOR FREE FINANCING! My acct was still frozen 45days after receiving the payment...I had enough...I refunded the money and closed my acct last month...I ask all my friends, partners,and biz associates to stop using PayPal...this is what I tell you PayPal you do not suck, that doesn't apply to you,you are sleazy cheap

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would expose themselves to such obvious fraud? The personal guarantees go away once your business is a going concern.

Sorry, what obvious fraud? And if the personal guarantees are going to go away once the business is a going concern, there's no problem with writing a shut-off date into the contract to make this explicit from the beginning, is there?

You can anonymously acquire a Nevada shelf corporation in a week or two. If you were able to just setup a merchant account without a personal guarantee, you could then trivially rack up a significant volume of fraudulent charges without any recourse. (The bank would literally not know who you are)

If you are a real business, you will almost certainly change credit card processors anyway to get better payment terms as your volume increases. The last startup I worked for changed at least three times as our volume grew.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, what obvious fraud? And if the personal guarantees are going to go away once the business is a going concern, there's no problem with writing a shut-off date into the contract to make this explicit from the beginning, is there?

You can anonymously acquire a Nevada shelf corporation in a week or two. If you were able to just setup a merchant account without a personal guarantee, you could then trivially rack up a significant volume of fraudulent charges without any recourse. (The bank would literally not know who you are) If you are a real business, you will almost certainly change credit card processors anyway to get better payment terms as…

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. I don't think any of us are suggesting that merchant accounts should be made available without any checks at all.

It's reasonable to ascertain the identities of those running the company. While I'm no expert on US law, certainly here in the UK company directors have some basic responsibilities for acting responsibly and so forth and could be on the hook if they've been severely negligent, so you have that the moment you're dealing with the company itself.

But the point of a piercing agreement seems to be to put the company's controlling people on the hook personally even if they aren't grossly negligent and the business just doesn't work out. The fundamental point of setting up an independent legal entity is to sever that connection, and I personally believe that everyone should treat negotiations accordingly.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what else there is to talk about, unless you think contracts for merchant accounts should be compulsory. Completely automatic is obviously silly because of the fraud risk, but a presumption in favour and/or formal restrictions on acceptable criteria for refusal aren't nearly as absurd as you're implying. We're talking about a very closed industry and a service that, in practice, directly affects people's…

The "service providers" in those other "essential industries" that can't "deny provision" because they "don't like them" have, as a general rule, been granted monopolies. This is a silly conversation. The system that works the way you seem to want it to is the subject the thread ; it's Paypal.

No, PayPal is almost the opposite extreme: they do very little in the way of checking up-front, and that's why there can be problems later when their aggressive fraud checks kick in.

I'm not looking for anything so dramatic, just that merchant account providers should recognise that they are dealing with a separate legal entity. Identifying the key personnel is reasonable, and so is wanting to check them against databases of known fraudsters etc. Asking to see financial statements, business plans, projections, etc. is all reasonable too. So is requiring a cautious degree of funds retention until the trading patterns become clear is reasonable. I really don't have a problem with a merchant account provider wanting to know who they're dealing with and to have some confidence that the company is a viable business; that's only fair.

I'm simply arguing that putting members of the company on the hook personally is not fair. If you're going to have companies at all then you have to protect them against such arrangements by law or you've devalued the entire concept and undone whatever benefits you were hoping to achieve in terms of incentivising entrepreneurial behaviour in your economy.

For the record, I'd add demanding direct control of the company bank account as a red flag as well. Aside from the glaring potential for abuse or error by the merchant account provider (for which, by the way, the company directors will once again take the heat), this has obvious implications if the company ever fails: it allows the payment company to grab whatever it decides it's due before the usual legal mechanisms for dealing with corporate bankcrupty get a look in, for example. And what if there's more than one payment service involved? Do they get to race to see who can empty a company's bank account first if anything does go severely wrong?

IIRC the US has a concept of bankruptcy protection to isolate a company that's in trouble if they have a reasonable plan to extricate themselves rather than failing. Not running a business in the US, I don't know all the details, but it seems a reasonable premise. But what happens if that company has signed over direct access to its bank account to a merchant account provider, who is risk averse and doesn't like the chapter 11 filing?

The bottom line is that these are all worst-case, doomsday scenarios, and even if a company is going to fail, it's usually not going to fail out of the blue and to that extent. I think you're obsessing over a fraud risk at the expense of making it much harder for people to run honest companies. If the system is set up in such a paranoid way, it's hardly going to be surprising if legitimate entrepreneurs are put off starting up, obviously leaving a disprortionate number of fraudulent applicants.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, and now the answer to that question is, "No, actuarially, we cannot offer you a merchant account backed only by your corporation." Like I said before. Well, I don't believe that would be the universal answer in most cases, and perhaps where it really is there is a lesson that someone should learn cheaply. But let's assume you're right for the sake of this discussion. Your response is... what? That a financial ser…

This is not a serious argument. It suggests that a simple form of contract between two consenting counterparties should be made unlawful, and then, to get around the fact that this would result in a market where small startups would never be able to get merchant accounts, suggests that the entire payment processing market would either restructure itself or be forced to restructure itself to get around that problem. N…

This is not a serious argument. It suggests that a simple form of contract between two consenting counterparties should be made unlawful

Which happens all the time, particularly when the parties have unequal bargaining positions, in which case frankly your characterisation of the parties as "consenting" is a stretch at best.

and then, to get around the fact that this would result in a market where small startups would never be able to get merchant accounts

Of course they would. The industry is extremely profitable despite the ever-present risk of fraud, and the rates that merchant account providers charge to start-ups are often at least double what they can get away with for more savvy established businesses. You keep saying that start-ups wouldn't be able to get a merchant account at all if piercing agreements weren't allowed, but you've given no evidence for this and your position defies all logic. As I've argued elsewhere, piercing agreements are unlikely to provide much cover for the merchant account provider most of the time anyway, and I'm quite sure that the people in the industry have concrete figures for things like how often they really have to rely on such agreements and how much of their losses they are really able to recoup in those cases.

suggests that the entire payment processing market would either restructure itself or be forced to restructure itself to get around that problem.

In case you hadn't noticed, the on-line payments industry is restructuring.

For one thing, companies like Stripe are taking traditional merchant account/payment gateway set-ups to the cleaners. Every HN discussion on this topic is full of people who are involved with start-ups bemoaning the lack of alternatives outside the US, and as the new generation of payment companies establishes itself globally, things are only going to get better for merchant-experience-focussed companies like Stripe. The industry giants with their month-plus application processes and hundred-page legalese documents are either going to have to play nicely with the new kids (and I'm betting even a young company like Stripe is already able to negotiate much better terms than their start-up clients could) or lose out in the ever-growing on-line sales market.

Obviously there are already alternatives with different business models like PayPal, and despite the horror stories, they still potentially offer a much better experience to merchants than the old school providers. As offerings from other big names like Google and Amazon improve, and as more companies like Stripe go international, competition will also force PayPal to improve rather than relying on often being the only salesman in town.

And then there's the small issue of companies like GoCardless, who eschew the anachronisms and merchant-hostile terms of the card payment industry entirely. I expect they're going to do pretty well out of that, too.

In short, I think you put way too much faith in dinosaurs. The question isn't if they're going to change, it's only when. The issue for most of us running small companies outside the US right now is just that we're a bit early. I expect in five years time we'll all look back on this conversation and laugh.

The VP/Engineering in that scenario didn't even intend to create a personal attachment, and yet cases like this have been decided against people like that.

I'm not sure what your argument was in that part, but surely you know that as a basic matter of law a contract requires understanding by both parties of what the agreement is, so whatever cases you're thinking of probably weren't as simple as you're suggesting.

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