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Good riddance, PayPal

elliotjaystocks.com

211–220 of 272 posts

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, and now the answer to that question is, "No, actuarially, we cannot offer you a merchant account backed only by your corporation." Like I said before. Your response is... what? No merchant account for you?

No, I've outlined two other options: A. The bank offers a merchant account to a party they feel is worthy with the understanding that this party is going to use the account for the corporation. B. The bank re-evaluates their criteria for merchant accounts and/or develops new products with which to serve the demand for merchant accounts. But the status quo seems to me like a situation in which an entrepreneur can't st…

But the status quo seems to me like a situation in which an entrepreneur can't start an honest corporation without putting his kids' college savings at risk of highly unpredictable fraud loss.

And to add insult to injury, that kind of risk is entirely the fault of the payment industry itself, for failing to implement sufficiently robust security measures. And yet, the merchant typically carries the risk, not the payment industry.

Perhaps any compulsory refunds should be classified as either based on fraud or based on dissatisfaction, and the card payment services should be required to indemnify the merchant against fraudulent ones provided that the merchant has followed the recommended security steps before completing the transaction.

In fact, I've noticed recently that a few payment services are offering to eat chargebacks based on claims of fraud if an on-line transaction included a test such as Verified by Visa, so this situation may be starting to change, albeit rather slowly.

For losses based on dissatisfaction, it's probably as fair as anything practical to make the merchant carry the risk, but it is extremely unlikely that this kind of chargeback would result in a sudden spike in refunds a long time after the initial payments. It seems reasonable to handle this case via a level of retained funds commensurate with the observed level of loss.

That really only leaves catastrophe-scale events, such as a product having a fundamental flaw where everything dies at midnight on 1 January 2000. But in that case, either the business has the funds to cover the loss (in which case there's no problem and the card services can go to court if the merchant doesn't pay back what they owe) or the business is toast (in which case unless it's a very small business, probably no individual who gave a personal guarantee could do much to cover the costs anyway, and if it was a very small business, there's no substantial danger to the card service companies on the relatively rare occasions that they have to write the client off and eat the loss themselves).

In short, to the individual a piercing agreement may be an existential threat to their way of life, but such agreements make little real difference to the card companies in cases where the problem is not essentially their fault anyway.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#212
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wrong. A common type of fraud on ebay is for an account to build up a reputation buying/selling low cost items (or high cost items between a group of criminal partners) before using the account to scam on high price items. Criminals are perfectly willing to put time and effort to create fake accounts or just buy stolen accounts.

To accept your statement that I'm "wrong," I'd need to see some examples of false business fronts that were not obviously bogus from day 1. On eBay, yes, it was pretty easy to play the "Sell a bunch of stuff for 99 cents and then pull the big scam" game. But none of the widely-publicized cases where PayPal has basically attempted to wreck the lives of startup founders fall into that pattern. These people have all had…

It's a relatively common thing for criminals to do, and is known as a 'long firm': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_firm

1) Run a legit business for a few months

2) Build up credit history with suppliers

3) After a while, buy a huge amount of stock on credit

4) Sell all of the stock for cash at massive discounts

5) Disappear with the cash, leaving a pile of unpaid debt in your wake

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#213

One of the comments in the article mentions gocardless.com for UK payments. This seems suspiciously good - an end run around credit card companies and much lower fees. Has anyone used it? Is there a catch? How do customers react?

We're looking into it at the moment. They seem like decent people. Their integration set-up isn't bad.

As far as we can tell, there is only one catch, but it's a big one: you can only take payments from bank accounts within the reach of their direct debit system. That means UK-only today, and they've announced their intent to expand across Europe in "mid-2012" [1], but it's not clear when they might go any further.

[1] https://gocardless.com/faq

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#214
post #89

The customer service angle sucks, no question, and I'm worried about getting into similar trouble (I sell downloadable games via PayPal). But I actually think holding an issues worth of revenue in reserve is a decent enough compromise. If the company goes bankrupt before an issue ships, for whatever reason, PayPal themselves are going to be on the hook for refunding every single payment, as well as chargeback fees th…

But yet somehow banks stay in business while being legally barred from these same protections.

Banks are not doing merchant processing for most people. Having some sort of reserve to guard against chargebacks is incredibly common in the industry; PayPal, however, is known for going completely over the top as the article and numerous commenters indicate.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#215
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent points. As developers, we're used to just plugging in an API and have it "just work". Money transfer systems are different. They draw a lot of dark, evil forces that try not just to hack their systems, but to game and abuse it through normal operations. It's unfortunate that legitimate businesses get caught in the crossfire sometimes, but we rarely hear about how many credit card thieves PayPal's system rig…

"but we rarely hear about how many credit card thieves PayPal's system rightful stops. (Answer: It's a lot.)". How do you know it is a lot if we rarely hear about it?

I work with ex-PayPal engineers on similar systems. While I can't give numbers as they're confidential, our automated systems catch a lot of attempted fraud, and I know Paypal does far more payment volume and has much more sophisticated fraud detection systems than us (compare three years of data to over a decade at scale). Doing the math... yes, it's a lot.

Also, fraudsters tend to not brag about how much fraud they weren't able to process.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#216
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is there a reason Amazon Payments or Google Wallet haven't overtaken PayPal in this market? As a buyer (and not a merchant), I love Paypal because I can have it debit directly from by bank account instead of handing over my credit card information. I hate credit cards, and this combined with Paypal's two-factor authentication gives me some good peace of mind. I haven't seen any other services that provide direct-deb…

> I love Paypal because I can have it debit directly from by bank account instead of handing over my credit card information You'd rather give the internet a direct line to your bank account to suck out all your money, vs giving it a number to a credit line (which you can refuse to pay if there's any fraud)? I'd like to see the logic behind this.

I've got it tied to a separate bank account that I transfer funds into whenever I want to buy something. I wouldn't ever connect it to my savings.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#217
post #19
post #10

Does anyone have insider knowledge of why PayPal has been causing merchants so much trouble? It sure looks bad on the outside, but I'd be interested to hear their rationale.

To the extent this perception represents actual reality: You know how every time a new payment provider comes up and people kvelch that it isn't available in their country and how no provider is? This is because every payment provider which attempts to hit as many countries as Paypal does dies . They're killed by fraud. (Fraud kills domestic ones, too, all the time, but it's marginally less frequent.) Luckily, Paypal…

This post makes me very very happy, knowing that Paypal lost one hundred million dollars. Thank you for making my day!

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#218
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To accept your statement that I'm "wrong," I'd need to see some examples of false business fronts that were not obviously bogus from day 1. On eBay, yes, it was pretty easy to play the "Sell a bunch of stuff for 99 cents and then pull the big scam" game. But none of the widely-publicized cases where PayPal has basically attempted to wreck the lives of startup founders fall into that pattern. These people have all had…

It's a relatively common thing for criminals to do, and is known as a 'long firm': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_firm 1) Run a legit business for a few months 2) Build up credit history with suppliers 3) After a while, buy a huge amount of stock on credit 4) Sell all of the stock for cash at massive discounts 5) Disappear with the cash, leaving a pile of unpaid debt in your wake

Sure. Someone does that when they are looking to steal hundreds of thousands of dollars, or millions of dollars.

Someone looking to put one over on PayPal is not going to do all that crap. Sorry. I need to hear some actual examples if I'm going to change my mind.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kickstarter's T&Cs state: Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

When you fund a Kickstarter project, you're investing in the project. If it does not fully fund, you receive a refund from Kickstarter. If it does, your funds go to the project, who are on their best effort to successfully launch the project. You are NOT, however, directly purchasing a reward. You receive a reward as a gift for helping to fund at a given level.

Are you unable to read? The T&C, as quoted, very clearly states that the project creator is required to fulfil the reward or they must refund the backer.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#220
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But yet somehow banks stay in business while being legally barred from these same protections.

Banks are not doing merchant processing for most people. Having some sort of reserve to guard against chargebacks is incredibly common in the industry; PayPal, however, is known for going completely over the top as the article and numerous commenters indicate.

> Banks are not doing merchant processing for most people.

Well, US banks aren't. Dutch banks are doing it just fine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEAL

Works very well and I trust this method a lot more than a payment processor that's not my bank.

I'm not entirely sure what the rules are from the merchant's side, however.

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