Good riddance, PayPal • Hacker News Board

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#81

Post by meanguy » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:17 PM UTC

ios84dev wrote: post #76

meanguy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can echo the same treatment with two different merchant account providers across three companies. Didn't matter if it was a $10k month or a $1MM month or if the company was new or old--it was a constant battle. In one case it was only my personal credit rating (which happened to be spotless) that saved my business. Yes, think about that. A merchant account -- where they hold your company's money -- relies on your p…

Why would a merchant account provider have your personal social security number/be doing credit checks? Assuming its an incorporated C corp?

Requested it as part of the application. Perhaps I could have avoided the disclosure, but since a merchant account is effectively offering you credit (think about it) leveraging my personal rating yet incurring no liability was a pragmatic win.

The issue is that fraud prevention--like terrorism prevention--means the side that's doing the groping isn't going to tell you exactly what they're doing and why. This leads to a lot of confusion.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#82

Post by dangrossman » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:19 PM UTC

ios84dev wrote: post #76

meanguy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can echo the same treatment with two different merchant account providers across three companies. Didn't matter if it was a $10k month or a $1MM month or if the company was new or old--it was a constant battle. In one case it was only my personal credit rating (which happened to be spotless) that saved my business. Yes, think about that. A merchant account -- where they hold your company's money -- relies on your p…

Why would a merchant account provider have your personal social security number/be doing credit checks? Assuming its an incorporated C corp?

No merchant account provider will open a new account without the personal social security numbers of the principals. Otherwise you could defraud one bank then the next your whole life by simply forming a new LLC/corp each time for $100 a pop.

When a merchant is terminated for fraud, breach of contract or excessive chargebacks, they can be placed on the TMF (Terminated Merchant File) and MATCH (Member Alert to High-Risk Merchants) lists which all Visa/MC member banks have access to. The social security numbers of all the principals are added to that list, so that if they apply with a new business somewhere else, the bank knows they've previously been a principal of a business some other bank terminated, and the reason.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#83

Post by Daniel_Newby » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:22 PM UTC

happywolf wrote: post #41

One of the reasons why PayPal so paranoid is to prevent money laundering. In fact this could be _the_ factor because any mis-step would land PP itself in big trouble and could be fined a lot of money. My guess is PP would rather err on the side of its own safety. Another cause that it will freeze an account is when it suspects the account is used for illegal activities (e.g. selling fake goods). Please note I am in n…

I doubt it. Money launderers never do chargebacks and never make complaints. They are _the_ ideal banking customer, which is why the tax man hates on them.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#84

Post by kevinconroy » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:23 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #35

The customer service angle sucks, no question, and I'm worried about getting into similar trouble (I sell downloadable games via PayPal). But I actually think holding an issues worth of revenue in reserve is a decent enough compromise. If the company goes bankrupt before an issue ships, for whatever reason, PayPal themselves are going to be on the hook for refunding every single payment, as well as chargeback fees th…

Excellent points. As developers, we're used to just plugging in an API and have it "just work".

Money transfer systems are different. They draw a lot of dark, evil forces that try not just to hack their systems, but to game and abuse it through normal operations.

It's unfortunate that legitimate businesses get caught in the crossfire sometimes, but we rarely hear about how many credit card thieves PayPal's system rightful stops. (Answer: It's a lot.)

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#85

Post by Daniel_Newby » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:24 PM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #31

Irfaan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If PayPal is so very terrible (and I believe it), Is there a reason Amazon Payments or Google Wallet haven't overtaken PayPal in this market? If neither Amazon nor Google's brand recognition hasn't convinced folks (buyers or sellers) to start pushing it instead of PayPal for Internet purchases, I can only hope it's because their solutions are equally terrible - otherwise, I have a hard time seeing how a new player wi…

As Auguste mentioned already, it's all about lacking direct debit for international customers. I'm from the Netherlands and if you're a freelancer here you need to provide income statements for 3 years before you can get a credit card. That meant that until last year I couldn't buy a thing with Google Wallet or Amazon Payments without asking my family for a credit card. The only thing that worked for me was PayPal (a…

They won't even give you a secured credit card, one backed by a cash deposit?

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#86

Post by robomartin » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:29 PM UTC

nmcfarl wrote: post #63

robomartin wrote: post #56

I fully understand Paypal's need to protect itself from scammers. I get it. The loss potential is huge. I think the problem here is that they really don't have any kind of a real relationship with their customers. As an honest business person --not a scammer-- when this kind of thing happens to you it is horribly disruptive and demoralizing. As honest people we should be spending time on our business rather than tryi…

My company empties our PayPal account 2x a month, at which point it's well into 5 digits, and we've been doing this for ~5 years. If emptying accounts is a red flag, it's never hit us.

> My company empties our PayPal account 2x a month, at which point it's well into 5 digits, and we've been doing this for ~5 years.

Right, but you've been doing that with regularity. It's all about patterns. In addition to that, you are not doing this a day or two after having a probing conversation with a Paypal representative who obviously called with concerns about your account. Huge difference.

I can take almost any amount I want out of our Paypal accounts and it has never triggered so much as a warning email. Our track record (~10 years) is pretty solid.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#87

Post by darklajid » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:30 PM UTC

adrinavarro wrote: post #28

tylerrooney wrote: post #27

Perhaps someone who runs their own company can answer this question for me: If you don't use PayPal, how do you receive payment from customers who don't have credit cards? Are your customers exclusively in North America? Or do you just write those customers off (which is a valid option if PayPal integration would be that painful)? Adding PayPal as a payment option has been an enormous pain for us but a non-consequent…

There are debit cards out there! In fact, everyone I know has at least one debit card (either MasterCard or VISA), aside from the number of people who have an AMEX/VISA (credit type). And debit cards work everywhere. I've used my VISA Electron (debit) pretty much everywhere in the developed world, both online and travelling abroad.

Whatever that is, a debit card by MasterCard or VISA..

Me? Got my first credit card with 30, when I moved to Israel. That thing's invalid by now. Here in Germany I have a direct debit card (likely ~everyone~ has one, it's the one you use for the ATM as well), issued by my bank.

Now, I can use Paypal. In Germany (and probably more places) they offer to connect a regular bank account. So - Paypal can withdraw from my bank account, I can pay with Paypal where people otherwise insist on a type of payment that I don't like (Paypal's not the nicest thing ever by itself, but 'it works').

In my circle, credit cards are still mistrusted, ~rare~ (as in at least 2 out of 3 won't have one) and really just for collecting debt or buying stuff on your company's name. People around me are waiting for Google Play (oh I HATE that name) gift cards, because they'd really like to buy apps some time..

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#88

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:31 PM UTC

adrinavarro wrote: post #28

tylerrooney wrote: post #27

Perhaps someone who runs their own company can answer this question for me: If you don't use PayPal, how do you receive payment from customers who don't have credit cards? Are your customers exclusively in North America? Or do you just write those customers off (which is a valid option if PayPal integration would be that painful)? Adding PayPal as a payment option has been an enormous pain for us but a non-consequent…

There are debit cards out there! In fact, everyone I know has at least one debit card (either MasterCard or VISA), aside from the number of people who have an AMEX/VISA (credit type). And debit cards work everywhere. I've used my VISA Electron (debit) pretty much everywhere in the developed world, both online and travelling abroad.

[deleted]

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#89

Post by jedberg » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:39 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #35

The customer service angle sucks, no question, and I'm worried about getting into similar trouble (I sell downloadable games via PayPal). But I actually think holding an issues worth of revenue in reserve is a decent enough compromise. If the company goes bankrupt before an issue ships, for whatever reason, PayPal themselves are going to be on the hook for refunding every single payment, as well as chargeback fees th…

But yet somehow banks stay in business while being legally barred from these same protections.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#90

Post by superjesuspants » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 3:42 PM UTC

I had PayPal freeze my merchant account while I was registering it. I didn't even get to sell anything, because their broken, confusing interface made me fill out something wrong, and when I tried to correct it they froze the account. I believe every word of this article.

I've been hearing a lot about Stripe lately, but haven't used it yet.