Live data from Hacker News

Good riddance, PayPal

elliotjaystocks.com

21–30 of 272 posts

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#21
post #10

Does anyone have insider knowledge of why PayPal has been causing merchants so much trouble? It sure looks bad on the outside, but I'd be interested to hear their rationale.

My impression is that the barrier to entry of working with PayPal (in comparison to having a meeting with a bank and going through formal underwriting) is sufficiently low that people begin working with PayPal without knowing much about how financial systems work: they don't know how holds work, they don't understand how the credit system works, and in general they believe that the system should work identically to cash transactions (as in, the money is yours immediately when it hits your account).

The result is that the system is treating them identically to how a bank would treat a more organized company; however, with an accountant on hand and an understanding of the rules, the organized company is much less likely to make silly mistakes (such as selling people a product that is shipped more than 48 hours later, already in violation of VISA's rules, to a third-party's address and then claiming that it is a "donation" and not a "purchase" There are also simply more players, as we are now talking about a bunch of couple-person companies that are using PayPal to accept credit cards, and even individuals who may not be incorporated at all but are using it to launch and sell products on their websites. These kinds of people are also much more likely to decide to attempt "lynch-mob" as their primary means of recourse against a company doing something they disliked, so we are doubly more likely to hear about situations.

However, as a merchant who operates something that many people (incorrectly) call sketchy, and one who has spent much too long learning all of the relevant tax regulations, reading up on credit cards, talking to people with real merchant accounts, and having meetings with banks about possibly using their service instead, my opinion is: PayPal is not that difficult to talk to and they are not actually unreasonable; there are things they are incompetent at, but this isn't one of them.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#22
post #13

Any good alternatives?

I started using Skrill Moneybookers because it's used internationally. I can't use Amazon or Google Wallet because I'm in Canada and its taking them bloody well forever to get here.

Oh, and I just signed up for Zoompass.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#23

There's been a lot of PayPal hating on HN. I'm not trying to defend the horrible things that I've heard, but I, for one, am a happy PayPal customer. We've regularly moved thousands upon thousands of dollars a day for the last decade without any major issues. #YMMV

There are countless tales of eBay parties having their funds frozen. I've personally had around a dozen influxes of a couple hundred dollars at a time be frozen for 4-6 weeks before I had access to their full balances.

Additionally, many have issues with the fees. Going back to eBay, you get hit with fees for both services, and I think many just see it as being too much given other emerging comparable services.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#24
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately for Elliot, myself and the countless other non-Americans in the software development world, Stripe is not available (yet) outside of the USA. Stripe have stated that they're working very hard on breaking out into other countries, but I suspect it must be an immense job, what with all of the various existing bureaucracies and regulations present in each country. Hopefully we'll get some good news in the…

Even when it becomes available to merchants in other countries, it still won't let you accept payments from the dozens of countries where people use PayPal but don't have major brand credit cards. There's really no equivalent service.

I think Skrill Moneybookers http://www.moneybookers.com is as close as you'll get to PayPal. They accept pretty much all credit cards, banks etc.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#25
Does the oft-lionized "PayPal gang", famous for their successes in the tech community, bear any responsibility for the company's customer experience being sometimes so terrible?

Maybe this just happens to all payment companies at scale, but it seems like PayPal has a lot of stories from ordinary-sounding, reasonable-sounding people who were just trying to sell something and ended up losing all their money. Who's responsible for those service delivery failures?

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#26
post #10

Does anyone have insider knowledge of why PayPal has been causing merchants so much trouble? It sure looks bad on the outside, but I'd be interested to hear their rationale.

Considering they have a quarter billion active users, a "horror story" once or twice a month is an amazingly, amazingly low dissatisfaction rate. I don't think PayPal is actually causing that many merchants much trouble. It just appears that way, because:

* At most merchant services providers, underwriting happens up front: you have to describe your business, what you're selling, expected volume, etc. on an application, and go back and forth with the bank, before you are allowed to accept credit cards. PayPal lets you start immediately, and only gets the information from you once you've started transacting some meaningful volume. So the risk problems are weeded out with other processors right at the start, where with PayPal it can come up suddenly.

* These people have never even thought about underwriting and risk assessment. They treat PayPal as if it's a consumer service, when PayPal has to treat it seriously -- they're essentially making a rolling loan in the amount of 6 months of your transaction volume -- because if you disappear, they're on the hook for the chargebacks for all your past payments. People do stuff no other processor would let them do -- like taking massive donations with no prior approval, selling pre-orders to software that hasn't been written yet -- and PayPal isn't OK with it either once they find out.

* PayPal merchants are disproportionately more often individuals than actual businesses compared to what other processors see... because it's so easy to open an account, and everyone that's used eBay already has one.

* Because the merchants are individuals, and have no experience with underwriting at other processors, and have previously used accounts suddenly limited or frozen, they're confused and surprised. Add to that customer service that won't really tell you much once an account's been closed, and you end up with a couple really angry people a month: cue blog post about how PayPal is evil and if only it were a bank, they couldn't do this.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#27
Perhaps someone who runs their own company can answer this question for me: If you don't use PayPal, how do you receive payment from customers who don't have credit cards?

Are your customers exclusively in North America? Or do you just write those customers off (which is a valid option if PayPal integration would be that painful)?

Adding PayPal as a payment option has been an enormous pain for us but a non-consequently amount of our revenue comes from customers either without credit cards or with cards which always fail on international transactions. I see no alternative to PayPal for these customers.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#28

Perhaps someone who runs their own company can answer this question for me: If you don't use PayPal, how do you receive payment from customers who don't have credit cards? Are your customers exclusively in North America? Or do you just write those customers off (which is a valid option if PayPal integration would be that painful)? Adding PayPal as a payment option has been an enormous pain for us but a non-consequent…

There are debit cards out there!

In fact, everyone I know has at least one debit card (either MasterCard or VISA), aside from the number of people who have an AMEX/VISA (credit type).

And debit cards work everywhere. I've used my VISA Electron (debit) pretty much everywhere in the developed world, both online and travelling abroad.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#29
post #6
post #2

Paypal to me is the classical example of the incumbent growing stale and detached from its consumer base on which it built its business on. Sellers like Eliot are the bulk of Paypal's business - small businesses who needed a (relatively) easy way to start accepting payments online. Paypal is just giving every opportunity for someone else to come and get their market share. Hopefully it will happen sooner rather than…

If PayPal is so very terrible (and I believe it), Is there a reason Amazon Payments or Google Wallet haven't overtaken PayPal in this market? If neither Amazon nor Google's brand recognition hasn't convinced folks (buyers or sellers) to start pushing it instead of PayPal for Internet purchases, I can only hope it's because their solutions are equally terrible - otherwise, I have a hard time seeing how a new player wi…

>Is there a reason Amazon Payments or Google Wallet haven't overtaken PayPal in this market?

As a buyer (and not a merchant), I love Paypal because I can have it debit directly from by bank account instead of handing over my credit card information. I hate credit cards, and this combined with Paypal's two-factor authentication gives me some good peace of mind. I haven't seen any other services that provide direct-debit to Australians, and even if they did, they would be useless to me unless they were as ubiquitous as Paypal is. I can use Paypal just about everywhere except for Amazon and O'Reilly. At this point I wouldn't even consider using Amazon or Google Wallet for purchases.

On the other hand, these horror stories have made me very wary of the merchant side of Paypal, and I'd definitely think twice about using them to process payments.

Re: Good riddance, PayPal

#30

Perhaps someone who runs their own company can answer this question for me: If you don't use PayPal, how do you receive payment from customers who don't have credit cards? Are your customers exclusively in North America? Or do you just write those customers off (which is a valid option if PayPal integration would be that painful)? Adding PayPal as a payment option has been an enormous pain for us but a non-consequent…

There are debit cards out there! In fact, everyone I know has at least one debit card (either MasterCard or VISA), aside from the number of people who have an AMEX/VISA (credit type). And debit cards work everywhere. I've used my VISA Electron (debit) pretty much everywhere in the developed world, both online and travelling abroad.

Yes, because there are no security issues in giving out a debt card number that is directly linked to your bank account.
Post reply on HN