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Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

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Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#251

Post by SJC_Hacker »

ceejayoz wrote: post #103
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> egal tender only applies to debts. I used to think that was true, but try paying parking fines, etc. with pennies. Legal tender has never been challenged in court to my knowledge

Parking fines aren't debts, and thus, legal tender doesn't apply. https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/seventh-circuit/city-sanc... > The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled this week that city-levied fines are not debts under the FDCPA... District courts, for what it's worth, uniformly agree that a fine does not stem from a consensual transaction, and thus is not a debt under the FDCPA.

> a fine does not stem from a consensual transaction, and thus is not a debt under the FDCPA.

Which transactions with the government is "consensual" where it doesn't demand payment up front (like a contractor)?

This goes back to my idea that while legal tender is a nice idea, in practice it means nothing

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#252

Post by SJC_Hacker »

SteveNuts wrote: post #231
FredPret wrote: post #230

Let me say first of all that the card networks do great work enabling commerce by being lightning-fast and generally secure. I can securely complete transactions and subscriptions with ~anyone on the planet in mere seconds. But holy cow do they have large margins. 40-50%! The profit growth charts on these two are a sight to behold. http://valustox.com/MA http://valustox.com/V The situation is simply begging for disru…

It's amazing how it wasn't that long ago that you'd walk into an establishment and ask if they accept cards instead of cash only. Going into rural areas it's still not a 100% given that all places will accept cards.

There was even a place in Silicon Valley would not accept anything but cash, but I haven't been there in 4 years so don't know if its still the case

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#253

Post by laurencerowe »

ninalanyon wrote: post #130

In Norway there is already a low fee processor called BankAxept. It has made it practical for shops to sell even the cheapest item and accept payment by card without losing money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankAxept

This seems to have happened in the UK now too, though all bank debit cards have been Visa Debit since 2009 or so. I think fees are now solely percentage based and close enough to bank cash handling fees that there's no longer any downside to accepting card payments for small transactions.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#254

Post by rprend »

_1tem wrote: post #207
Esophagus4 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me where they’re “warned to stay out of the business” Surely you must be thinking of mob movies, not the payments space.

There's evidence that Visa and Mastercard tried to prevent Apple from building their own network, including DOJ antitrust complaints in 2024 and a more recent suit in July 2025. The fact that antitrust allegations failed to make it in court despite it being such an obvious antitrust case against the duopoly very much suggests that there is something more going on behind the scenes. This seems like such an easy antitr…

Apple does not only gain by disintermediating Visa. Apple takes a cut on every purchase through Apple Pay (.15%), which is more than Visa's cut (.14%). Apple probably hasn't made a payment network because it would have to either create a settlement network (which is hard even for Apple, and Visa/Mastercard as settlement networks get less of a cut than Apple does without bothering), or Apple would have to buy a bank and become an issuer. Why don't they buy a bank? Maybe Visa / Mastercard scared them away from it. Maybe they don't want to deal with underwriting and return risks and all of that. It does deviate quite far from their core business.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#255

Post by _1tem »

rprend wrote: post #254
_1tem wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's evidence that Visa and Mastercard tried to prevent Apple from building their own network, including DOJ antitrust complaints in 2024 and a more recent suit in July 2025. The fact that antitrust allegations failed to make it in court despite it being such an obvious antitrust case against the duopoly very much suggests that there is something more going on behind the scenes. This seems like such an easy antitr…

Apple does not only gain by disintermediating Visa. Apple takes a cut on every purchase through Apple Pay (.15%), which is more than Visa's cut (.14%). Apple probably hasn't made a payment network because it would have to either create a settlement network (which is hard even for Apple, and Visa/Mastercard as settlement networks get less of a cut than Apple does without bothering), or Apple would have to buy a bank a…

Thanks for the clarification I stand corrected. Still pretty shady what’s done to crypto founders though, but they’re in a shady business already. Blocking Brazils Pix from going global is more egregious.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#256

Post by crote »

lan321 wrote: post #176
Xss3 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hoping steam builds their own.

They could probably make decent money with card graphics. I'd probably pay a couple bucks for a Gaben or an R6Siege card. Much more interesting than metal cards.

My previous bank already offered this: for 5 bucks extra you could get your own image printer on your debit card. They are one of the most popular banks around here, yet I rarely see anyone with one.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#257

Post by crote »

FredPret wrote: post #230

Let me say first of all that the card networks do great work enabling commerce by being lightning-fast and generally secure. I can securely complete transactions and subscriptions with ~anyone on the planet in mere seconds. But holy cow do they have large margins. 40-50%! The profit growth charts on these two are a sight to behold. http://valustox.com/MA http://valustox.com/V The situation is simply begging for disru…

> Let me say first of all that the card networks do great work enabling commerce by being lightning-fast and generally secure.

A lot of that is smoke and mirrors. They give a very fast pinky promise of payment, but it usually takes several days to become irrevocable. Similarly, it has taken decades for them to implement any form of genuine security, and even today the main form of fraud protection is... simply having the merchant pay for it.

The most impressive part is how they managed to stay this popular, despite being built on fundamentally flawed concepts.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#258

Post by vidarh »

ta12653421 wrote: post #224
vidarh wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handling cash costs money too. Sometimes more than handling cards. But a proportion of customers who like cash are very strongly convinced they are "subsidising" card payments, and might be attracted by pricing like that, so maybe it still ends up being a net gain.

From a percentage perspectice, handling huge amounts of cash should be far more expensive; I know one of the operators over here in my country: If you are a supermarket chain and have three locations in one large street, they charge you for every stop a minimum fee + additional handling costs.

When I suggested pricing like that might work, my point was not that it'd be cheaper. I 100% agree it'd be more expensive. But if it attracts a sufficient amount of additional business from people who want to pay cash it could still be a net gain (assuming those customers are still profitable).

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#259

Post by lan321 »

crote wrote: post #256
lan321 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could probably make decent money with card graphics. I'd probably pay a couple bucks for a Gaben or an R6Siege card. Much more interesting than metal cards.

My previous bank already offered this: for 5 bucks extra you could get your own image printer on your debit card. They are one of the most popular banks around here, yet I rarely see anyone with one.

I've seen it as well, but for me, it'd be better to have premade images, and Valve can make images that interest me and aren't too cringe.

It's not a massive business, but it's probably good side money since many banks offer it. It probably costs 5 cents to print on it, and you can easily get me to give you 2$ for it. Up to 5$ if I really like it or you catch me in a moment of weakness at 2 AM.

And they can probably try to make it a big business. They managed to get people to spend stupid money on skins, levelling Steam accounts, etc, so there are probably whales who'd collect cards. For example, if you get a special card skin unlock once you 100% a game, or you just add rarity to them. The chances aren't huge IMO, but I'd have never guessed people would pay the money they pay for skins and levels anyway, so..

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#260

Post by ceejayoz »

OutOfHere wrote: post #199
ceejayoz wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except that stablecoins can be self-custodied I will not apologize for the cluelessness of other people, like those who think Amazon is gonna make and promote a stablecoin they don't deeply control. Even Tether freezes addresses. Amazon absolutely will. > It's about what Amazon wants, has said they will institute… That applies to a whole bunch of things they eventually gave up on. (Like https://www.theverge.com/202…

The freezes apply only under direction from the federal government. It's not something that the issuer does without this instruction. Tether has no control of its own here, and Amazon won't either. Amazon is just an example. Dozens are coming.

> The freezes apply only under direction from the federal government.

Tether chose to build in a freeze capability.

> Tether has no control of its own here, and Amazon won't either.

Neither can say "no" to a legal order from a government with jurisdiction over them. Both can say "no" to you voluntarily, even absent a court order.

An Amazon stablecoin will exist for the purpose of Amazon's own benefit, not consumers'.

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