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Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

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Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#51

Post by account42 »

conductr wrote: post #4
omgtehlion wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so it’s hard to make the case for keeping it. How about “not breaking stuff” which can not be upgraded? Like old sites/services without active maintainers but still useful. Or hardware appliances that still work, but will not get firmware update ever. Let alone rss feeds, brought up multiple times in the linked thread. Looks like builtin polyfill (similar to pdfjs in FF) would do. But google seems to be reluctant d…

When’s a reasonable time to pull the plug on out of fashion legacy stuff? Things can’t always remain backwards compatible forever. I think the places this is still in use can build contingencies where required

If you want to build a stable platform: never.

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#52

Post by johannes1234321 »

globular-toast wrote: post #19

Isn't it a shame that we can only have one program installed on our computers. Imagine (if you can!) being able to have two programs, one (program A) that supports JS and all that shite, and another (program B) that supports XSLT and all that shite. If you're still with me imagine that program A could just call program B when it detects stuff that it doesn't support and vice versa. I know, I know, a measly 16 core CP…

And how does a "web" work, which links "Hoyertext" between those places using XSLT and those which don't?

And well, the browser tries to be the only program one uses, where all applications run inside it.

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#53

Post by JimDabell »

edent wrote: post #39
JimDabell wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why shouldn't people be overly emotional? By definition overly emotional is bad – that’s what separates “overly emotional” from just “emotional”. Regardless, having emotions is not the problem, lashing out at others because of those emotions is the problem. > These are all valid and useful emotional responses. Telling someone "if you do this it will make me sad" should be useful feedback. The person you are respond…

> By definition overly emotional is bad – that’s what separates “overly emotional” from just “emotional”. Human reactions are by definition not bad. They are a genuine expression of how we feel. We use that to signal our emotional state to others. Try an experiment for me. Tell your partner that you want to split up. Once they finish crying, tell them that they're being "overly" emotional. See how that goes for you.…

> > By definition overly emotional is bad

> Human reactions are by definition not bad.

I said “overly emotional” was bad by definition, not “human reactions”. Don’t change my words then argue against what you changed them to.

> Try an experiment for me. Tell your partner that you want to split up. Once they finish crying, tell them that they're being "overly" emotional. See how that goes for you.

Why? They would not be overly emotional. Crying in response to being broken up with is a normal amount of emotion. Same goes for the mother example.

The whole point of overly emotional is that it is a label that specifically describes the emotions as being in excess. The label means “bad” – it’s bad by definition. If it were not bad in this way, then it would just be “emotional”, not “overly emotional”. Attaching “overly” is describing it as bad.

> > Why are you misrepresenting this as “it will make me sad”?

You did not even attempt to answer this.

GP said they received hate and insults. You misrepresented that as “it will make me sad”. Hate and insults are not somebody saying “it will make me sad”. You misrepresented what GP was saying. Why?

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#54

Post by JimDabell »

account42 wrote: post #51
conductr wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When’s a reasonable time to pull the plug on out of fashion legacy stuff? Things can’t always remain backwards compatible forever. I think the places this is still in use can build contingencies where required

If you want to build a stable platform: never.

The web platform has repeatedly removed features like this in the past, and it’s the most stable platform in the history of the computer industry.

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#56

Post by account42 »

shiomiru wrote: post #20
3036e4 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things can remain backwards compatible forever. That is what any good standard does. Web standards and much else in software is sadly a complete mess where too few care about all the downsides of instability. I am a bit worried because for many years I used plugins like SinglePage to save web pages as HTML. That is not exactly future-safe since every relase of Chromium or Firefox has a list of things that were deprec…

> Things can remain backwards compatible forever. This is exactly the attitude that has left us with only three complete extant implementations of the web, two of which are controlled by an ad company. Indeed, to me it seems that at some point, you either have to a) freeze the standard b) drop old stuff c) accept that there is no standard and with the web as a whole, we are firmly headed towards option c). So I find…

> This is exactly the attitude that has left us with only three complete extant implementations of the web, two of which are controlled by an ad company.

No, adding complex new interfaces and then demanding that every browser implement them quickly is what does that. Google is not proposing to reign in that behavior.

> a) freeze the standard

Yes, or rather new features should become rarer over time.

> and with the web as a whole, we are firmly headed towards option c)

Which has nothing to do with backwards compatibility but with Chromes appetite for adding new APIs, presumably with exactly this outcome being their goal.

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#57

Post by naniwaduni »

worble wrote: post #30
miki_oomiri wrote: post #5

The quality of the github comments: accusing developers of being dictators, being overly emotionally, the hate towards people who actually made the web happen (Smaug, Anne, Emilo, etc…), the "why not just…" or "hire more people" remarks... For a browser developer, this is depressing. I've worked on Gecko for 10+ years, and we were constantly called names for absolutely any change we would do. Insulted and accused of…

Personally I've found googles responses to be very rude; they've asked for feedback and people have come back saying "We're still using this, please don't just remove it" and despite that they seem to be completely uncompromising on removing it without any adjustments like shipping the wasm polyfill instead of native code. It kind of baffles me that they could even consider this, maybe I'm just naiive but the webs gr…

The unwillingness to ship the polyfill as a substitute for the native code really puts the lie to any notion that this is really about security/attack surface angle that some people have latched onto, too.

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#58

Post by naniwaduni »

bitwize wrote: post #43
account42 wrote: post #38

How is the answer to any question "Should we remove X from the web platform?" where X wasn't introduced in the last week an has actual users not a resounding "No, WTF is wrong with you.".

Easy. Just use the GNOME argument: round a small enough minority down to "nobody" and then confidently claim "nobody actually uses that, and we don't want to maintain it, so we're removing it."

In order to reach that point faster, never improve the feature and make it increasingly cumbersome to use to turn potential users off it.

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#59

Post by JimDabell »

Avamander wrote: post #37
pdw wrote: post #32

It's disheartening that this Chrome dev in the comments shows himself to be completely unaware of the RSS ecosystem...

I still can't see how browser support is useful for that. Now to think of it, I'd like to see one useful example of its usage. Haven't seen one in a long long time.

Take a look at this feed:

https://interconnected.org/home/feed

You’ll see if you view source that it’s an RSS (XML) file that your browser doesn’t know how to render. But at the top, there is this:
Your browser loads that XSLT and uses it to transcode the XML into HTML, which your browser can now render. The source is here:

https://github.com/genmon/aboutfeeds/blob/main/tools/pretty-...

Re: Should we remove XSLT from the web platform?

#60

Post by edent »

JimDabell wrote: post #53
edent wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By definition overly emotional is bad – that’s what separates “overly emotional” from just “emotional”. Human reactions are by definition not bad. They are a genuine expression of how we feel. We use that to signal our emotional state to others. Try an experiment for me. Tell your partner that you want to split up. Once they finish crying, tell them that they're being "overly" emotional. See how that goes for you.…

> > By definition overly emotional is bad > Human reactions are by definition not bad. I said “overly emotional” was bad by definition, not “human reactions”. Don’t change my words then argue against what you changed them to. > Try an experiment for me. Tell your partner that you want to split up. Once they finish crying, tell them that they're being "overly" emotional. See how that goes for you. Why? They would not…

OK, so what makes you the arbiter of when an emotion is "in excess"?

Your partner crying at being broken up with is OK by you. What if they call you a rude name? Or throw crockery? Who decides that the emotions they are showing are bad?

> Hate and insults are not somebody saying “it will make me sad”. You misrepresented what GP was saying. Why?

"How dare you break up with me! You bastard!"

"Whoa! There's no need for rude language!"

Humans use language to indicate their strength of feeling. My reading of the GitHub thread is of people politely replying with several reasons why they don't want this change. When Chrome then ignores them, the people escalate their language to make their strength of feeling known.

This is a normal feature of human language. This is how humans have communicated for millennia.

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