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Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

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Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#541
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? The US has all of that. You can move freely between states.

Internal movement doesn't count. Only a real hell-hole like North Korea will prevent you moving around in your own country.

The US economy is about 1.5 times larger than the entire EU.

The US is over 2 times larger by land.

Population is about a quarter smaller. Still, Massachusetts has more people than Denmark, New York has the same as Romania, California has more people than Poland.

Our original founding documents cite "these united states", interestingly and very tellingly "these", not "the." States are their own entities, and you'd find many to have very different cultures and laws — probably the same level of variance you'd find in the EU.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huxley and Bradbury did.

This is actually why I always considered Brave New World to be much closer in predicting the future, at least in spirit if not in hard details. Let people access personal distractions, conveniences and pleasures on your road to total surveillance, and attempts at social control, and you can apply them with very little need to ever enforce miseries like those of "1984"

Brave New World and Nineteen Eighty-Four still function as science fiction, Fahrenheit 451 basically captures the present.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#543
post #85
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the UK, and it's the police controlling these vans. So trans, drag and gay are not at issue here. And somehow, the countries where it is a problem are never discussed. All muslim countries, for example, almost like not all religions are equal ... if you read hrw or amnesty you'll find that even the most moderate muslim countries like Morocco or Turkey deal violently with sexuality (all forms, really, yes, bei…

I guess at present the UK is very tolerant. But no one can predict the future. It can go downhill. Even for developed western countries. Once surveillance is setup, it is hard to restrict its usage. Especially when the society gets used to it.

Not for trans people, especially trans women

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not immigrants. Illegal immigrants.

Colonial powers are not entitled to that argument, it's hypocritical.

Oh f*ck off, if that's the stance then we should just recolonise those countries and send these doctors and engineers back to help rebuild them.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the people suffering the consequences of illegal immigration today performed that colonialism? Not even their ancestors at colonial times benefitted much from it: the industrial working class of Britain was in dire position despite Britain being a colonial Empire. That money and power went to the ruling classes and their middle class bootlickers.

No, but they benefitted from the colonialism and fight efforts to return those benefits to the colonized. We're not talking about something that happened thousands of years ago here.

[deleted]

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#546
post #516
post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the EU we have different liberties to the US. That doesn't necessarily make Europeans less free. For example, wlthe EU has free movement of goods, capital, services, and people across borders. None of which are present in the USA. Does that make Americans less free than Europeans? Some would argue so, but I don't see it. The UK however, maybe. Brexit was a real dumb idea.

> free movement of goods, capital, services, and people across borders What in the world are you talking about? The US has all of this internally. If on the one narrow point you want to claim that EU has open-borders to the rest of the world, no you don't and that's not something that's good to have anyways. Both US and European citizens are fighting their own governments to decrease immigration as polling shows larg…

The European Union has, in practice, lacked genuine free movement of people across internal borders for some time (I went through complete and very aggressive border control entering France via airplane three years ago). Schengen arrangements have been curtailed in Germany[^1]. Part of the challenge is that Europeans appear out of touch with rapidly changing realities (I say this as a European). Additionally, some argue that the European Parliament is operating under an unofficial coup[^2].

The rearmament initiative is particularly concerning. Over the past three years, communities in Italy, Spain, Greece, and Germany have been devastated by flooding, wildfires, etc. Rather than prioritizing investment in resilient infrastructure, leaders are channeling resources into rearmament to confront Russia and China (or so they say - since they are acting as clowns anyway no one really pays attention). My concern is that these weapons may ultimately be used by Europeans against one another; It happened twice already.

[^1]: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/temporary-border-controls-to...

[^2]: https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-europe-...

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO it shouldn't even get that far, to questions of how much we should be allowed to ask of others in the name of basic decency; there's been a massive shift from people being self-regulating and trying to be considerate to others, to the conversation changing to something like, "how dare you even speak to me while I'm blasting tiktok loudly, I'm going to look up the letter of the law and see what the maximum disrupt…

The counter-culture movement was quite explicit in their mission to replace traditional social norms and values that led to social order with their opposites. We shouldn’t be surprised society has fallen.

"society has fallen"

In the real world things seem to be pretty much the same as they have been for most of my life (and I am 60 in a few months).

Online, yes some people behave like monsters and occasionally some of that bleeds across into the real world - but overall I think we are pretty far from saying that "society has fallen".

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#548

Is there a public conversation in European countries about the value of liberty? I don't mean arguments about how liberty can lead to more economic prosperity, I mean how liberty is valuable on its own terms. Without this value, the state can continue to erect legislation in the name of "safety", or any other perceived inequity in society, until you can no longer move. How perverse that English law used to be a basti…

Depends what you mean by liberty. If you mean the sort of American Libertarianism that's popular in tech circles, then no. That's never really been a thing in Europe. If you mean liberty as in Human Rights, it waxes and wanes. Broadly speaking in the EU in the 90s/00s human rights were improved and expanded. The European human rights courts were strengthened, more laws passed aimed at opposing discrimination. And the…

This is almost entirely backwards.

European liberalism is the wellspring of American liberalism, but Europe has - for obvious, historical reasons - much better organised reactionary elites. The equilibrium between the European publics and elites does indeed wax and wane.

In the 1990s a whole bunch of elite shibboleths were encoded into supranational law (so that no elected government is able to repeal them) as incredibly vaguely defined "human rights", which in turn have given rise to a vast bureaucratic apparatus to administer them (often staffed by the children of elite families). This apparatus is used as a cudgel to chip away at basic liberties - abstract, ill-defined communitarian rights (eg "safety") are used to sweep aside actual, tangible individual rights (eg speech, privacy).

(As an aside, the Soviet Union did effectively the same thing with their emphasis on "social rights" - such as those in the ICESCR - as opposed to "bourgeois" individual rights - such as those in the ICCPR. Didn't work out great for Soviet citizens.)

Since the 1990s, as a result of misgovernance by its chronically incompetent elites, Europe has been in decline by almost every metric. In the past ten years or so, the European publics have been in increasingly open revolt about this. A bunch of populist opportunists have seized on this revolt to offer various alleged alternatives, but been unable to deliver any sort of tangible change. (There is no reason to believe any change will come from this group, since they are basically just the second-rate members of the existing elite who have bet on populism as their ticket to the top.)

Europe tells itself stories about being a "human rights superpower" as an adaptive mechanism for its clear decline in prosperity, freedom, and relevance.

IMHO, Europeans deserve much better than this sad, managed decline. But given the deep structural barriers to protect the elites and prevent change, I just cannot see how this gets better.

Will the last European please turn out the lights?

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but then the organization was proscribed as a terrorist organization.

There's no legal mechanism to ban/proscribe a group in the UK except under terrorism legislation: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/for-what-reasons-other-than... If the government wants to shut this group down (which I think is a reasonable response to an attack on our military) then I'm not sure what other options were available to them. And like I said, what they did seems to meet the legal definition of terrorism…

Here in Sweden what organizations are engaged in terrorism is up the courts and the government has no right to intervene at all to proscribe a group, with EU and other political terrorism designations being irrelevant.

Furthermore, I think that there is a duty, if one suspects that a capability is or may be used to aid genocide, to destroy that capability. Hopefully Palestine Action are incorrect, and targeting assets that have not been used to aid genocide or otherwise make it easier, but if they are right and the UK have actually aided genocide, then they have done too little violence.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#550
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal movement doesn't count. Only a real hell-hole like North Korea will prevent you moving around in your own country.

The EU and US are roughly equivalent in size. I’m not sure it’s fair to say that doesn’t count. It’s (nominally) a union of states after all

There is far more cultural diversity between the EU countries than states in the US - it’s not close.
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