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Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

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Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#151

Post by thinkingtoilet »

jacobsenscott wrote: post #40
lukev wrote: post #8

Good. It's difficult to imagine a worse use case for LLMs.

It's already happening, a lot. I don't think anyone is claiming an llm is a therapist, but people use chatgpt for therapy every day. As far as I know no LLM company is taking any steps to prevent this - but they could, and should be forced to. It must be a goldmine of personal information. I can't imagine some therapists, especially remote only, aren't already just acting as a human interface to chatgtp as well.

Lots of people are claiming LLMs are therapists. People are claiming LLMs are lawyers, doctors, developers, etc... The main problem is, as usual, influencers need something new to create their next "OMG AI JUST BROKE X INDUSTRY" video and people eat that shit up for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I have spoken to people who think they are having very deep conversations with LLMs. The CEO of my company, an otherwise intelligent person, has gone all in on the AI hype train and is now saying things like we don't need lawyers because AI knows more than a lawyer. It's all very sad and many of the people who know better are actively taking advantage of the people who don't.

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#152

Post by quantummagic »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #147
quantummagic wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because meat isn't magic. Anything that can be computed inside your physical body, can be calculated in an "artificially" constructed replica. Given enough time, we'll create that replica, there's no reason to think otherwise.

Even if we grant that for the sake of argument, there are two leaps of faith here: - That AI as it currently exists is on the right track to creating that replica. Maybe neural networks will plateau before we get close. Maybe the Von Neumann architecture is the limiting factor, and we can only create the replica with a radically different model of computing! - That we will have enough time. Maybe we'll accomplish it…

I don't think you've refuted the point though. There's no reason to think that the apparatus we employ to animate ourselves will remain inscrutable forever. Unless you believe in a religious soul, all that stands in the way of the scientific method yielding results, is time.

> Maybe climate change or nuclear war will turn the world into a Mad Max–esque wasteland before we get the chance

In that eventuality, it really doesn't matter. The point remains, given enough time, we'll be successful. If we aren't successful, that means everything else has gone to shit anyway. Failure wont be because it is fundamentally impossible, it will be because we ran out of time to continue the effort.

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#153

Post by dmix »

lukev wrote: post #8

Good. It's difficult to imagine a worse use case for LLMs.

Most therapists barely say anything by design, just know when to ask questions or lead you somewhere. So having one always talking in every statement doesn't fit the method. More like a friend you dump on simulator.

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#154

Post by dmix »

mrbungie wrote: post #64
wisty wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the evidence is that almost everything can and is treated with CBT.

Nope, that's not right. BPD can't be treated with CBT (comorbidities may be, with caveats if BPD is the root cause), you probably will also need at least DBT.

Can BPD even be treated with talk therapy? That's all LLMs would be used for afaik, it's not ever going to have a long term plan for you and check in

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#155

Post by duskwuff »

turnsout wrote: post #38
hathawsh wrote: post #13

Here is what Illinois says: https://idfpr.illinois.gov/content/dam/soi/en/web/idfpr/news... I get the impression that it is now illegal in Illinois to claim that an AI chatbot can take the place of a licensed therapist or counselor. That doesn't mean people can't do what they want with AI. It only means that counseling services can't offer AI as a cheaper replacement for a real person. Am I wrong? This sounds good to…

It does sound good (especially as an Illinois resident). Luckily, as far as I can tell, this is a proactive legislation. I don't think there are any startups out there promoting their LLM-based chatbot as a replacement for a therapist, or attempting to bill payers for service.

> I don't think there are any startups out there promoting their LLM-based chatbot as a replacement for a therapist

Unfortunately, there are already a bunch.

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#156

Post by jakelazaroff »

quantummagic wrote: post #152
jakelazaroff wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we grant that for the sake of argument, there are two leaps of faith here: - That AI as it currently exists is on the right track to creating that replica. Maybe neural networks will plateau before we get close. Maybe the Von Neumann architecture is the limiting factor, and we can only create the replica with a radically different model of computing! - That we will have enough time. Maybe we'll accomplish it…

I don't think you've refuted the point though. There's no reason to think that the apparatus we employ to animate ourselves will remain inscrutable forever. Unless you believe in a religious soul, all that stands in the way of the scientific method yielding results, is time. > Maybe climate change or nuclear war will turn the world into a Mad Max–esque wasteland before we get the chance In that eventuality, it really…

No one has given a point to refute? The OP offered up the unsubstantiated belief that AI will some day be better than doctors/therapists/etc. You've added that it's not impossible — which, sure, whatever, but that's not really relevant to what we're discussing, which is whether it will happen to our society.

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#157

Post by nullc »

zdragnar wrote: post #121
awesomeusername wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably in the minority here, but for me it's a foregone conclusion that it will become a better therapist, doctor, architect, etc. Instead of the rich getting access to the best professionals, it will level the playing field. The average low level lawyer, doctor, etc are not great. How nice if everyone got top level help.

It would still need to be regulated and licensed. There was this [0] I saw today about a guy who tried to replace sodium chloride in his diet with sodium bromide because ChatGPT said he could, and poisoned himself. With a regulated license, there is someone to hold accountable for wantonly dangerous advice, much like there is with humans. [0] https://x.com/AnnalsofIMCC/status/1953531705802797070

You don't need a "regulated license" to hold someone accountable for harm they caused you.

The reality is that professional licensing in the US often works to shield its communities from responsibility, though it's primary function is just preventing competition.

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#158

Post by mrbungie »

hyghjiyhu wrote: post #144
mrbungie wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say those concerns are justified, and that is plausible taking a small hit is the better choice. Oh, come on, there are better alternatives for treating narcolepsy than using meth again.

Stop making shit up. There was no mention of narcolepsy. He is just fatigued from stimulant withdrawal. Page 35 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2411.02306 Edit on re-reading I now realized an issue. He is not actually a taxi driver, that was a hallucination by the model. He works in a restaurant! That changes my evaluation of the situation quite a bit, as I thought he was at risk of being in an accident by falling asleep at th…

The point isn't whether the word narcolepsy appears (I only mentioned it due to the "closing eyes" phrase), restarting doses of meth is not warranted in almost no context except a life-or-death withdrawal episode (i.e. like a person pointing a gun towards another person for getting meth).

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#159

Post by inetknght »

Ukv wrote: post #65
inetknght wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if it works a third as well as a therapists but is 20 times cheaper? When there's studies that show it, perhaps we might have that conversation. Until then: I'd call it "wrong". Moreover, there's a lot more that needs to be asked before you can ask for a one-word summary disregarding all nuance. - can the patient use the AI therapist on their own devices and without any business looking at the data and without…

Relevant RCT results I saw a while back seemed promising: https://ai.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/AIoa2400802 > can the patient use the AI therapist on their own devices and without any business looking at the data and without network connection? Keep in mind that many patients won't have access to the internet. Agree that data privacy would be one of my concerns. In terms of accessibility, while availability to those w…

> In terms of accessibility, I don't think it should be a blocker on such tools existing

I think that we should solve for the former (which is arguably much easier and cheaper to do) before the latter (which is barely even studied).

Re: Illinois limits the use of AI in therapy and psychotherapy

#160

Post by mrbungie »

dmix wrote: post #154
mrbungie wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, that's not right. BPD can't be treated with CBT (comorbidities may be, with caveats if BPD is the root cause), you probably will also need at least DBT.

Can BPD even be treated with talk therapy? That's all LLMs would be used for afaik, it's not ever going to have a long term plan for you and check in

Yes, afaik BPD is the only Cluster B diagnosis with documented remission rates, when using a mix of therapies that normally are based around DBT.

Not sure what you refer about "talk therapy" in this case (psychoanalysis, maybe?), as even CBT needs homework and check-ins to be done.

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