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The Framework Desktop is a beast

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Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#331

Post by cptskippy »

topspin wrote: post #229
schmorptron wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will we be able to get similar bandwidth with socketed ram with CAMM / LPCAMM modules in the near future?

Maybe, but due to the physics of signal integrity, socketed RAM will always be slower than RAM integrated onto the same PCB as whatever processing element is using it, so by the time CAMM / LPCAMM catches up, some newer integrated RAM solution will be faster yet. This is a matter of physics. It can't be "fixed." Signal integrity is why classic GPU cards have GiBs of integrated RAM chips: GPUs with non-upgradeable RAM…

Perhaps it's time to introduce L4 Cache and a new Slot CPU design where RAM/L4 is incorporated into the CPU package? The original Slot CPUs that Intel and AMD released in the late 90s were to address similar issues with L2 cache.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#332

Post by masterj »

CharlesW wrote: post #317
kingstnap wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple base models tend to be fairly competitive but they have some of the most extreme margins on RAM and SSDs in the industry. They charge $600 CAD to go from 16GB -> 32 GB. They charge $900 CAD for 512 GB -> 2 TB SSD.

Unless I'm misunderstanding their store page, Framework charges $687 CAD ($500 USD) to go from 16GB → 32 GB RAM. They do only charge $214 CAD ($156 USD) to 512 GB → 2 TB SSD, thanks to it just being an NVMe stick.

> Unless I'm misunderstanding their store page, Framework charges $687 CAD ($500 USD) to go from 16GB → 32 GB RAM.

That doesn't seem accurate for any of their computers? There is a pretty big leap from 32GB -> 64GB for the Desktop, but that is also a different processor.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#333

Post by 12345hn6789 »

politelemon wrote: post #135

I could do with someone explaining to me (sorry not very advanced knowledge in this area), how did Framework manage this performance at a lower price point? And why can't average Joe at PCPartPicker do something like this?

Real question, it's not. It's close to the m4 mini performance. Which puts the price point within spitting difference ($50). Basically identical price wise to equivalent Apple products.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#334

Post by porphyra »

oblio wrote: post #247
aomix wrote: post #227

I’ve been agonizing over getting the Framework Desktop for weeks as a dev machine/local LLM box/home server. It checks a lot of boxes but the only reason to look at the Framework Desktop over something like a Minisforum MS-A2 is for the LLM and that seems super janky right now. So I guess I’ll wait a beat and see where we are later in the year.

How quiet is the Minisforum?

I'm not sure, but you could always just buy the Minisforum BD790i X3D [1]. Then, you'd be able to choose your own fan and case, and you can make it arbitrarily quiet by selecting a good fan. Early BD790i boards had a bug where losing power causes it to reset all BIOS settings, but they fixed that in later batches. I wonder when they will come out with a 9955HX version. Another good thing about this board is that it has two PCIe 5 NVME SSD slots with active cooling, which is a lot better than most other mini ITX boards out there, including the Framework.

[1] https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-bd790i-x3d

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#335

Post by arp242 »

mananaysiempre wrote: post #327
arp242 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework also charges quite a surplus on the SSD. For example "WD_BLACK SN7100 NVMe 2TB" is €229, but a more typical price is around ~€140, so that's about €90 extra. Don't know how that compares to Apple.

Framework absolutely does fleece you on the SSD, so don’t buy SSDs from them if you’re price-sensitive. But compared to Apple it’s nowhere close: per Apple’s website, upgrading a current Mac Mini or Mac Studio from 512 GB to 2 TB costs $600. You can buy a WD_BLACK SN850X 8TB for that much money (or a WD_BLACK SN8100 4TB and still have a quarter of it left over, if you really want PCIe 5.0, but there’s no point at the…

I checked and it's €750 extra to get a 2TB here in Ireland (just to compare apples with apples wrt. Framework Desktop). Wahahaha, this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#336

Post by Aurornis »

ramesh31 wrote: post #312
dijit wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend Apple here, but it's also a bit apples to oranges (heh) because the power consumption is not easily comparable. I would hazard a guess and say: at that spec, if you're looking at 1Y TCO, the Apple could easily be cost competitive performance per dollar. Since they're in spitting distance of each other, just get the one you're most comfortable with. Personally I prefer Linux and I'm really happy that non…

You have to account for resale when it comes to TCO. Resale value for a non-Apple PC is essentially zero - i.e. no one will buy it, or you'll get pennies on the dollar if they do. Whereas there's a strong market for used Apple hardware, and you can easily recover 50% or more.

This is an exaggeration, or you're not comparing apples to apples.

The used market for high performance PC gear is quite efficient. You're not going to get a high-end CPU or GPU from the past several years for pennies on the dollar.

Likewise, the resale market for Apple products doesn't guarantee 50% or more unless you're only looking at resale value of very new hardware. For example, you can pick up an M1 Max MacBook Pro (not that old) for closer to 1/3 of the original price.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#337

Post by JonChesterfield »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #183
izacus wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Strix series of AMD uses a similar architecture as M series with massive memory bandwidth and big caches. That results in significantly better performance.

Isn't this the desktop architecture that Torvalds suggested years ago?

It basically looks like a games console. Its not a conceptually difficult architecture, "what if the GPU and the CPU had the same memory?". Good things indeed.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#338

Post by Aurornis »

lucb1e wrote: post #242

> The Framework Desktop with 64GB RAM + 2TB NVMe is $1,876. To get a Mac Studio with similar specs [...] you'll literally spend nearly twice as much [...] The Framework Desktop is simply a great deal. Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price?? I don't know that it logically follows that anything is a great deal when it undercuts Apple. Half sounds about right -- I thought Apple was a bit more competitive these day…

> Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price??

He didn't pick the equivalent Mac to compare to. The closest Mac would be a an M4 Pro Mac Mini, not a Mac Studio.

Right now I see a 64GB M4 Pro Mac Mini with 2TB SSD is $2600. Still more expensive, but not double the price. The Apple refurbished store has the same model for $2200.

The M4 Pro Mac Mini probably has the edge in performance, though I can't say how much. The Ryzen platform driver and software support is still early.

I think these Strix Halo boxes are great, but I also think they're a little high in the hype cycle right now. Once supply and demand evens out I think they should be cheaper, though.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#339

Post by Shadowmist »

microtonal wrote: post #243
aomix wrote: post #227

I’ve been agonizing over getting the Framework Desktop for weeks as a dev machine/local LLM box/home server. It checks a lot of boxes but the only reason to look at the Framework Desktop over something like a Minisforum MS-A2 is for the LLM and that seems super janky right now. So I guess I’ll wait a beat and see where we are later in the year.

My main worry about all the Minisforum, Beelink, etc. PCs is: potential lack of UEFI firmware updates (does anyone have experience with how good they are with updates?) and potential backdoors in the UEFI firmware (either intentionally or unintentionally). A China-aligned/sponsored group has made an UEFI rootkit targetting ASUS/Gigabyte mainboards: https://www.spiceworks.com/it-security/vulnerability-managem... Why n…

I bought 3 Minisforum machines for a Kubernetes cluster and they didn't make it 11 months. They weren't even powered on most of that time. They just completely freeze with a black screen, and randomly enough to where every time I think maybe I figured out a fix it just crashes again a day later.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#340

Post by smokel »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #94
ashleyn wrote: post #9

How is AMD GPU compatibility with leading generative AI workflows? I'm under the impression everything is CUDA.

CUDA isn't really used for new code. Its used for legacy codebases. In the LLM world, you really only see CUDA being used with Triton and/or PyTorch consumers that haven't moved onto better pastures (mainly because they only know Python and aren't actually programmers). That said, AMD can run most CUDA code through ROCm, and AMD officially supports Triton and PyTorch, so even the academics have a way out of Nvidia he…

> CUDA isn't really used for new code.

I don't think this is particularly correct, or at least worded a bit too strongly.

For Nvidia hardware, CUDA just gives the best performance, and there are many optimized libraries that you'd have to replace as well.

Granted, new ML frameworks tend to be more backend agnostic, but saying that CUDA is no longer being used, seems a bit odd.

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