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The Framework Desktop is a beast

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Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#241

Post by throw090329 »

Fnoord wrote: post #237
makeitdouble wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For nuance: - framework only sells to specific countries. Warranty won't even be an issue if you can't buy one in the first place. - Chinese manufacturers offer support and warranty. In particular GMKTek does[0]. - Repairability will be at best on par with framework, but better than a random western brand. Think HP and their repairability track record. "just a Chinese company" feels pretty weird as a qualificative in…

My post is the nuance, and as a buyer/user of GPD, Minisforum, and Xiaomi products I respectfully disagree. Chinese companies are not on par with Western ones. The QA, safety measures, hazard compliance, warranty, or even proper English (they use an online translator service) isn't there. Cha bu duo is an accurate description of Chinese products. From the link you send they offer 7 days return policy. In EU you got 2…

Lenovo is a Chinese company.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#242

Post by lucb1e »

> The Framework Desktop with 64GB RAM + 2TB NVMe is $1,876. To get a Mac Studio with similar specs [...] you'll literally spend nearly twice as much [...] The Framework Desktop is simply a great deal.

Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price??

I don't know that it logically follows that anything is a great deal when it undercuts Apple. Half sounds about right -- I thought Apple was a bit more competitive these days than ×2 actually, but apparently not, also considering that Framework comes with a (totally fair) niche-vendor premium

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#243

Post by microtonal »

aomix wrote: post #227

I’ve been agonizing over getting the Framework Desktop for weeks as a dev machine/local LLM box/home server. It checks a lot of boxes but the only reason to look at the Framework Desktop over something like a Minisforum MS-A2 is for the LLM and that seems super janky right now. So I guess I’ll wait a beat and see where we are later in the year.

My main worry about all the Minisforum, Beelink, etc. PCs is: potential lack of UEFI firmware updates (does anyone have experience with how good they are with updates?) and potential backdoors in the UEFI firmware (either intentionally or unintentionally). A China-aligned/sponsored group has made an UEFI rootkit targetting ASUS/Gigabyte mainboards: https://www.spiceworks.com/it-security/vulnerability-managem... Why not require/compel certain companies to implement them directly?

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#244

Post by wmf »

lucb1e wrote: post #242

> The Framework Desktop with 64GB RAM + 2TB NVMe is $1,876. To get a Mac Studio with similar specs [...] you'll literally spend nearly twice as much [...] The Framework Desktop is simply a great deal. Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price?? I don't know that it logically follows that anything is a great deal when it undercuts Apple. Half sounds about right -- I thought Apple was a bit more competitive these day…

That's purely due to Apple's ridiculous SSD pricing. You can save a lot of money by using an external SSD.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#245

Post by microtonal »

throw090329 wrote: post #241
Fnoord wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My post is the nuance, and as a buyer/user of GPD, Minisforum, and Xiaomi products I respectfully disagree. Chinese companies are not on par with Western ones. The QA, safety measures, hazard compliance, warranty, or even proper English (they use an online translator service) isn't there. Cha bu duo is an accurate description of Chinese products. From the link you send they offer 7 days return policy. In EU you got 2…

Lenovo is a Chinese company.

I would rather say it's a Chinese conglomerate. E.g. Think.* are said to be designed in the US, Taiwan, and Japan. They are often assembled locally (e.g. my ThinkStation was assembled in Hungary). They have offices in many local markets and can be held accountable for warranty, issues, etc.

I agree with your general point though, 'Chinese' does not mean bad quality, warranty, etc. It's more a property of a bunch of Chinese computer companies selling through AliExpress, Amazon, etc. Their quality and service might improve as they grow.

As an aside, Lenovo are pretty awesome. For ThinkStations, ThinkPads, etc. they have in-depth guides for supported memory configurations, disassembly, repair etc., often with part numbers. Their hardware also works well with fwupdmgr and they provide their own Linux support (like WWAN FCC unlock scripts).

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#246

Post by croes »

esafak wrote: post #206
rs186 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't find an sufficiently similar alternative that is priced at a much better price, it is not overpriced.

For the purposes of running LLM models, a Mac Mini. The PC is cheaper, but it doesn't have MacOS, Apple's service or resale value.

> but it doesn't have MacOS, Apple's service or resale value.

If the purpose is running LLMs non of that matters.

But Linux support is an advantage. Does the M4 have that?

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#247

Post by oblio »

aomix wrote: post #227

I’ve been agonizing over getting the Framework Desktop for weeks as a dev machine/local LLM box/home server. It checks a lot of boxes but the only reason to look at the Framework Desktop over something like a Minisforum MS-A2 is for the LLM and that seems super janky right now. So I guess I’ll wait a beat and see where we are later in the year.

How quiet is the Minisforum?

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#248

Post by oblio »

rr808 wrote: post #185
biehl wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think DHH compares them because they are both the latest, top-line chips. I think DHHs benchmarks show that they have different performance characteristics. But DHHs favorite benchmark favors whatever runs native linux and docker. For local LLM the higher memory bandwith of M4 Max makes it much more performant. Arstechnica has more benchmarks for non-llm things https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/08/review-framewo…

After the appstore fight, DHH's favorite is whatever is not Apple lol. TBF it just opened his eyes to alternatives now is happy off that platform.

What app store fight?

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#249

Post by cge »

topspin wrote: post #229
schmorptron wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will we be able to get similar bandwidth with socketed ram with CAMM / LPCAMM modules in the near future?

Maybe, but due to the physics of signal integrity, socketed RAM will always be slower than RAM integrated onto the same PCB as whatever processing element is using it, so by the time CAMM / LPCAMM catches up, some newer integrated RAM solution will be faster yet. This is a matter of physics. It can't be "fixed." Signal integrity is why classic GPU cards have GiBs of integrated RAM chips: GPUs with non-upgradeable RAM…

It’s possible that Apple really did a disservice to soldered RAM by making it a key profit-increasing option for them, exploiting the inability of buyers to buy RAM elsewhere or upgrade later, but in turn making soldered RAM seem like a scam, when it does have fundamental advantages, as you point out.

Going from 64 GB to 128 GB of soldered RAM on the Framework Desktop costs €470, which doesn’t seem that much more expensive than fast socketed RAM. Going from 64 GB to 128 GB on a Mac Studio costs €1000.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#250

Post by fmajid »

worthless-trash wrote: post #218
fmajid wrote: post #82

I cancelled my Framework Desktop order and ordered a HP Z2 Mini G1a instead, the goal being to replace my Mac Studio as I've had it with Apple's arrogance and lousy software quality. The HP is much smaller, has ECC RAM and 10G Ethernet. Significantly more expensive, however.

Do you linux on this ? if so.. does everything work ?

Haven't received it yet, but of course I will install Linux on it.
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