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Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

open-web-advocacy.org

341–350 of 356 posts

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#341
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was suggesting Mozilla could help with the development. Firefox gains an engine that has a lot of other engineering hours being invested into it that can fulfill their needs.

Mozilla already has an engine with a lot of engineering hours invested in it and that fulfills their need. How does helping Google maintain their dominance help Mozilla?

Gecko doesn't support ios, so it wouldn't fulfill their needs here. Since Blink is known for being easier to embed then Gecko I think it would be easier for Firefox to move from Webkit to Blink than to Gecko.

Google's dominance is due to Chrome's market share. Using their browser engine doesn't affect their dominance.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#342

Everybody is talking about Chrome, but I tell ya what I have that disabled on my Android in favor of Firefox. Firefox on mobile with full-fat uBlock Origin is the closest thing to parity with desktop web access you can get. I don't just block ads, I block elements on sites I don't care about with :has-text RegEx rules. You can't do that on Chrome even on desktop anymore. I'm this close to swapping to the Android as m…

The consent-o-matic extension is also incredibly worth it on mobile firefox. Automates clicking through almost every cookie banner I've come across, which is much more annoying to do manually on a phone than on desktop.

uBo has a filter list for blocking out cookie popups, why not use that instead?

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can root a Chromebook if you choose to accept the risks involved. This is officially supported.

Sure, it's a nice feature, but I probably wouldn't. Maybe I'd put a sticker on it saying "my other computer is a Raspberry Pi Pico." It's not necessary to root every device you own. You can use one to do your banking and web browsing and have entirely separate devices for hacking.

Unless you want to look like a criminal, I probably wouldn't carry around two phones everywhere you go.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#344

Everybody is talking about Chrome, but I tell ya what I have that disabled on my Android in favor of Firefox. Firefox on mobile with full-fat uBlock Origin is the closest thing to parity with desktop web access you can get. I don't just block ads, I block elements on sites I don't care about with :has-text RegEx rules. You can't do that on Chrome even on desktop anymore. I'm this close to swapping to the Android as m…

if you also switch your phone, messages.google.com has you covered.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#345
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla already has an engine with a lot of engineering hours invested in it and that fulfills their need. How does helping Google maintain their dominance help Mozilla?

Gecko doesn't support ios, so it wouldn't fulfill their needs here. Since Blink is known for being easier to embed then Gecko I think it would be easier for Firefox to move from Webkit to Blink than to Gecko. Google's dominance is due to Chrome's market share. Using their browser engine doesn't affect their dominance.

> Gecko doesn't support ios, so it wouldn't fulfill their needs here.

Chrome doesn't support iOS either

> Google's dominance is due to Chrome's market share. Using their browser engine doesn't affect their dominance.

"Using a competitor's browser engine and thereby further cementing that browser's dominance doesn't affect dominance"

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#346
post #171
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably not use Facebook then. How is it that the answer to an American megacorp trying to hoover all of your personal data is to try to get another American megacorp to add universal barricades to your device?

> How is it that the answer to an American megacorp trying to hoover all of your personal data is to try to get another American megacorp to add universal barricades to your device? Because only Apple has the power to stop Chrome from being the only browser (like IE) or to stop Meta from insisting you give up all privacy. A government may be able to do it within their own borders for a period of time, but Meta, Googl…

In regards to browser lock down Apple wants to be the only game in town. Safari allows plug-in's but Apple doesn't allow 3rd parties to provide plugins themselves. They do this to create an unequal advantage.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#347
post #339
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on the app and the entitlements. I would assume apps that request entitlements for system-level VPN apis are scrutinized more than calculators.

And Facebook spies on users and competitors for years despite all the "reviews": https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47281906 Apple doesn't review apps the way people think it does.

The rules for Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp to get kicked out of the App Store are not the same as the rules for other companies’ apps to get kicked out of the App Store.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason why Safari is "shit" is because web developers are too lazy to develop for the web and instead develop for Chrome. Safari is only available on Apple devices, Chrome is available everywhere. Let's not pretend that laziness is the only reason why Chrome has the largest marketshare. > The point of the web is that it's an open standard. Expecting everyone to use the bleeding edge version of the most agg…

Safari being Apple-only only has the appearance of a problem when the only alternative is one browser that happens to be almost everywhere. Again, the point of the web is to be an open platform, not the placing at a single corporation. Chrome has plenty of problems but nobody cares because when Chrome doesn’t support something properly, no one uses it. I agree that Safari is not perfect either. But let’s assume for a…

> Chrome has plenty of problems but nobody cares because when Chrome doesn’t support something properly, no one uses it.

The difference between Chrome and Safari not supporting features is that Safari is developed by one company (Apple) whereas Chrome is developed by two (Directly by Google and indirectly by Microsoft). So Apple can have an incentive not to add a feature and end up harming the entire industry. But if Google has an incentive not to add something, Microsoft can still add that thing anyway (and vice versa), we only need one actor to act good for their not to be harm caused.

> 1. [...] A tiny number of developers who don’t already have access to an Apple device have to spend literally tens of dollars buying or inheriting 5+ year-old devices in order to test on a diversity of platforms.

This is flat out wrong.

One Safari is not equal to another.

You need to buy one of each device because Safari will change how it works across different devices.

Example 1: Safari adds depth touch to some devices which adds weird box overlays around parts of the website while the user is trying to use it, which blocks the content and interferes with which elements are supposed to be interactable unless you add special webkit-prefixed rules (e.g. -webkit-touch-callout, -webkit-tap-highlight-color, etc...) to different parts of your pages.

Example 2: Safari adds different buffer areas around their browser which you need to test with (using the env() css function) on each device with a different screen to make sure content isn't flowing off the screen or elements are being cut off at incorrect spots when they're supposed to flow past the edge.

And so on...

Apple keeps adding device specific ways of breaking websites.

Furthermore, each device can only run one version of Safari. Every time a new version comes out, you need to upgrade your OS to get the new version of Safari. And you also can't downgrade your OS to get the older version. And because some users can't upgrade and others won't, you need multiple of each device running each one on a different version of the OS to test correctly.

We have to spend 1000s of dollars each year on new devices just because Apple keeps inventing new ways of breaking things.

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Side question: But what about just buying a mac and running the iOS Simulator to test different versions of Safari on different devices?

It's no good, the iOS Simulator is a simulator, not an emulator. So the bugs that are on the device are not the same as the ones in the simulator.

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So out of your two options, what will happen is:

Some users will switch to Blink/Chromium and find that things start working better. That will start to build up a reputation of Chrome/Edge/etc... working better than Safari.

Meaning Apple will need to invest more money and effort into improving Safari.

Meaning Safari will be improved.

So either users start migrating to a better browser, or Safari improves to the point that it isn't a problem anymore.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari being Apple-only only has the appearance of a problem when the only alternative is one browser that happens to be almost everywhere. Again, the point of the web is to be an open platform, not the placing at a single corporation. Chrome has plenty of problems but nobody cares because when Chrome doesn’t support something properly, no one uses it. I agree that Safari is not perfect either. But let’s assume for a…

> Chrome has plenty of problems but nobody cares because when Chrome doesn’t support something properly, no one uses it. The difference between Chrome and Safari not supporting features is that Safari is developed by one company (Apple) whereas Chrome is developed by two (Directly by Google and indirectly by Microsoft). So Apple can have an incentive not to add a feature and end up harming the entire industry. But if…

I'm going to set aside your rather mid-tier developer criticisms of Safari, and I'll refrain from vomiting out verbiage of similar problems developing for Chrome, which nobody cares about because Chrome is what web developers think the web is. Chrome is seen as the standard whereas lazy minds desperately try to dismiss Safari as an inconvenience.

Your analysis is flawed at the core because you persist in making the same logical error which mid-tier web developers always make. Only web developers choose/change browsers because another one is "better". Ninety-nine percent of everyone else doesn't choose/change browsers, or if they do, it's because they were unwittingly exposed to an external influence, e.g.

1. Dark patterns (e.g. as employed by Microsoft in the 1990s, or Google in the 2020s);

2. Herd mentality ("my Son told me to use Chrome instead");

3. Because a website is broken (because the developer stubbornly refuses to believe that any web browser exists other than the bleeding edge release of Chromium)

And sorry but I just laughed when you said you need to spend "1000s of dollars each year on new devices". The only people who might need to do that are large corporations which already spend 1,000,000s of USD each year on developer salaries. A one-man team needs, at most, one desktop Mac made in the past 8 years ($200–1000 every 3–6 years) and one iOS device made in the past 5 years ($100–500 every 2–4 years). And that's assuming they don't already have either or both of these. And that's assuming that you're trying to do very complicated things. Most web developers shouldn't be doing anything that would break on a 10-year-old version of any major web browser (with the exception of TLS root certificates).

As an independent web developer with a Mac and iPhone, I begrudgingly buy and maintain a Windows computer and an Android phone, but you don't see me bitching and moaning about that, even though it's exactly the same thing.

No, it's not different because you're "forced" to acquire a new or used Apple product. As a developer, you are "forced" to acquire a reasonable spectrum of products based on what your audience is using. You are "forced" to test in Chrome. You are "forced" to pay taxes on income. You can wish the world was different, but wishes don't change practical realities.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consent-o-matic extension is also incredibly worth it on mobile firefox. Automates clicking through almost every cookie banner I've come across, which is much more annoying to do manually on a phone than on desktop.

uBo has a filter list for blocking out cookie popups, why not use that instead?

I have the Easylist one enabled, is there a more reliable one?

It doesn't catch them all, especially more niche sites that do more custom stuff to prevent you using the site until you interact with the notice. e.g. screen overlay, prevent scrolling using css rules.

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