Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

9to5mac.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 215 posts

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#71

Post by bilbo0s »

chilmers wrote: post #33
sneak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently wonder what steps SpaceX security has to take, given the insane geopolitical significance of reusable rockets and cheap access to orbit.

So, this is admittedly a little tinfoil, but I wouldn't be surprised if Musk is happy for some degree of espionage to happen. If it looked like there was a possibility of China getting this capability first, it would light a fire under the US government to give financial and regulatory assistance to the Starship program.

Musk does seem to think in terms of how much money he can get from the government for his companies. But to be fair, government subsidies are a successful strategy for entrepreneurs who want to make a lot of money.

Maybe they shouldn't be? And I think honest people can have that debate.

But you can't really argue against the effectiveness of government subsidy as a path to prosperity for the guy getting the money.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#72

Post by baggachipz »

reaperducer wrote: post #70
baggachipz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or for analogy, following a recipe doesn't make you a good cook.

Or for analogy, following a recipe doesn't make you a good cook. Following a recipe can you close enough for thousands of Door Dash customers to put the original restaurant out of business.

I feel like you're reading too deeply into my shallow analogy.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#73

Post by dagw »

llm_nerd wrote: post #64
sneak wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is insanely valuable, both commercially and strategically. If it weren’t that hard to replicate, several countries (and Bezos/Blue Origin) would have replicated it by now. I think you vastly underestimate how difficult rocketry is. There’s a reason “rocket science” is colloquially a metaphor for an extremely difficult and technical task.

>If it weren’t that hard to replicate, several countries (and Bezos/Blue Origin) would have replicated it by now. There is a 100% chance multiple countries/companies will have replicated it in the next decade. If SpaceX never existed, they likely would have achieved it at the same pace regardless. This is the same with EVs. If Tesla never rose, the world EV market outside of Tesla would have seen precisely the same r…

If Tesla never rose, the world EV market outside of Tesla would have seen precisely the same rise.

would have seen the same rise _eventually_. I know from a friend that worked R&D at a major car company that Tesla really lit a fire under then and 'forced' them to push their own EV experiments from proof of concepts to commercial product much faster than they where originally thinking about doing it.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#74

Post by Cyph0n »

tjpnz wrote: post #23
ants_everywhere wrote: post #6

Industrial espionage has to be totally insane to defend against these days.

Just knowing how the thing is built doesn't seem to be enough. Comac still sources its jet engines from Pratt and Whitney for instance, despite many years of trying no local manufacturer has been able to build them to the same spec.

Are P&W and Rolls Royce the only companies in the world capable of manufacturing high-end jet engines end-to-end?

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#75

Post by moralestapia »

baggachipz wrote: post #59
chii wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it also depends on how precise the recipe is - if it's described down to the exact movements the cook needs to do, which may be replicated via a machine...

No recipe accounts for ambient temperature/humidity, very few for altitude differences, etc. etc. It still takes knowledgable tweaks to get just right.

Such recipe could exist.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#76

Post by duxup »

93po wrote: post #67
duxup wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me companies ... don't care out side some easy to do basic things. But when push comes to shove if manufacturing is cheaper in a country where lots of folks want to steal your things. -shrug- Short term profits win.

am i crazy for not caring if a company in a foreign country obtains trade secrets and manufactures the same thing? like we're all humans and we all want access to whatever it is they're building, it seems like more people building the thing is a good thing. if that impacts Samsung's profits, why do I care? its not like corporations give a shit about me

I really can't answer that, it's your call if you care or not.

I think that the more of a free for all folks stealing tech as they wish will push companies who do the development work towards more proprietary / DRM and similar solutions ... I don't like that.

Allowing people to profit from their inventions / investments encourages more such development, and without that discourages it or encourages less good options.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#77

Post by zozbot234 »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #58

Could someone help contextualize what parts of this manufacturing process are considered the most important and closely guarded trade secrets? I'd love to hear some slightly more concrete examples. How easily could another company replicate this process if they knew all the key details? It was my understanding that access to photolithography machines was one of the major obstacles in replicating chip manufacturing pr…

> Could someone help contextualize what parts of this manufacturing process are considered the most important and closely guarded trade secrets?

There's way too many fine details to even begin to list. Modern chip fabbing is the closest thing on the planet to actual dark magic, and the difficulty only rises exponentially with every new fabrication node. Literally any part of this could be considered a "trade secret" if it's not already described publicly as part of patents, academic research or both.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#78

Post by blackguardx »

pc86 wrote: post #54
pythonguython wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spacex rocketry tech is subject to ITAR regulations. That restricts who they’re allowed to contract with, data encryption and handling, but altogether those regulations are quite bare. It likely wouldn’t be enough to stop a state actor or rogue employees.

I think ITAR is mostly just to stop the outright sale of controlled items to foreign entities, not necessarily to prevent IP theft or corporate espionage.

I worked on an ITAR-controlled camera once and it was drilled into me than even allowing a non-US person to view the output images of the camera constituted an ITAR violation.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#79

Post by echelon »

93po wrote: post #67
duxup wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me companies ... don't care out side some easy to do basic things. But when push comes to shove if manufacturing is cheaper in a country where lots of folks want to steal your things. -shrug- Short term profits win.

am i crazy for not caring if a company in a foreign country obtains trade secrets and manufactures the same thing? like we're all humans and we all want access to whatever it is they're building, it seems like more people building the thing is a good thing. if that impacts Samsung's profits, why do I care? its not like corporations give a shit about me

Some countries have all the talent and manufacturing and sourcing advantages. Once they take the lead, you might never be able to keep up.

Your engineers lose their jobs, your businesses go bankrupt, you exit that entire field entirely for your entire population. Slowly your ability to do work begins to evaporate.

It's happened before and it'll continue to happen.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#80

Post by bilbo0s »

AnonMO wrote: post #30
KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #18

Locally in Taiwan, there’s growing suspicion that the 2nm process technology was leaked to Japan’s Rapidus. People are questioning whether the technology was leaked to Rapidus through Japanese equipment suppliers.

make no sense since Rapidus 2nm process is from IBM.

We can make hypersonic missiles.

I still want to get a look at China's. Right down to the metallurgy.

Post reply on HN