What's a $4000 Suit Worth? • Hacker News Board

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#141

Post by katabatic » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 4:51 AM UTC

phaus wrote: post #99

noahc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And maybe it just might work... He doesn't have to jump from $4k to $10k. There's a demand curve and by raising prices from $4k to $5k and up he'll figure out where he can sit. More importantly, he's already at $4k. The person that spends $4k on a suit isn't going to sneeze at $8k. The person who spends $120 for a suit, throws a fit at $240.

And just to show how significant a 20% price increase would be: If he raised the price just $1k, that's $2k a month, or $24k a year. That would increase his take home income by almost 50%, as he claims his current income is around $50k.

You're forgetting to figure in withholding, self-employment tax, etc... that $24K/year increase would be to his gross income, not his take-home income.

The article said he averages 2 suits a month, or $8K in gross revenue, so that extra $1K per suit would increase his gross by 25%, and his take-home by less. As a sole proprietor craftsman, there's no math that can get you a 50% increase in profit with a 25% increase in gross revenue alone.

Still, not a bad deal, assuming his customers are willing to pay it (I'm willing to bet they are).

EDIT: I shouldn't do numbers while eating dinner :). His take-home increase could be more than 25%, but it's unlikely to be anything close to all of the gross increase, particularly if he wants health insurance, which, if he has it at all, is probably coming out of that $50K.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#142

Post by katabatic » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 5:04 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #108

pfedor wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the suit is dead? Don't know about other places, but at least in NoCal high status people don't wear suits. Since the only function of a suit is status signaling, it seems just a matter of time until everyone else catches up and suits will be replaced by bike jerseys or whatever.

I know it may not seem that way sometimes, but NoCal is not the entire world - nor does the entire world take their cultural cues from NoCal. The suit is very much alive in NY, in London, the entire legal world, and in many other places. That's just during the day. For formal events / outings it is SF that is the extreme outlier. In the rest of the country if you are going to a fancy restaurant, a wedding, an awards…

I, for one, wear suits simply because I enjoy them. I like how they look. More and more, as I get older, oddly. In my 20s you would have had to force me into one.

It's definitely true that there is status signaling involved, whether it's conscious or not, although I would hesitate to say that it's the suit's only purpose (and in my case, that's a side effect, not the purpose). You could make that argument about any clothing if you go that far.

But...I've definitely noticed being treated subtly better when I dress for occasions. Go to a nice restaurant dressed for an occasion, and you'll tend be treated like it's an occasion (obviously your milage may vary - act like a jerk and you'll be treated like one, no matter what you're wearing).

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#143

Post by pinaceae » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 5:19 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #40

Yet another submarine: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing. $4000 is several times what I spend on clothes in a year. It's several times what I spend on clothes in several years. There's a far less expensive option that's highly satisficing. Suits, once an inexpensive, practical, standardized alternative to more ornate and expensive clothing, are now…

If you get out of your tech-bubble, you'll notice this as very far from the truth.

Suits are the work dress in consulting, financial services, pretty much anything where you're clients demand respect and are not in IT (IT and personal visual aestethics have an inverse relationship, in any big company you can easily tell who is in IT).

Try to attend a management meeting in Europe, China, Japan without a suit.

Within the suit world people from the US are also highly visible as the art of fashion seems to have been lost. While the rest of the world went with tighter forms, US men still wear balloon shaped trousers, as if the 80s never stopped. And the number one tell are the shoes. Italians shape the shoe world, pointy and long have been the way to go for some time now - but US men go in with big black round things, often not even polished properly. This goes up to CEO level.

There are certain elements of a push-back right now in the US as well, the first one being the success of the tv-series Mad Med which is a big advertisement for fashion and representative clothing. The second being a resurgence of elegant, masculine fashion - see blogs like the Sartorialist for a glimpse into that: http://www.thesartorialist.com/

A well-fitted suit does not signal money, it signals TASTE. Which is very hard to talk about in tech circles. Like looking at a well set up VIM instance, it tells you about the owner's habits.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#144

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 5:31 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #60

Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so m…

I believe that is was from you I learned about a book, "The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing", which I think everyone in this thread should read.

Why speculate about how to set a price when you can apply some structured, thoughtful analysis to the problem?

It turns out that pricing is at once a slightly mysterious art and yet can be grasped in a few hundred pages. And that almost nothing else has as much leverage over profitability.

The book was actually overkill for the reason I bought it (settling on prices for a SaaS project); but I've started recommending it to every small business owner I know. It's that good.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#145

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 5:45 AM UTC

jcampbell1 wrote: post #134

This article is offensive to me. Frew is a talented craftsman and a recent immigrant who single-handedly makes more than the average household in the US, and is in the top 1% of the world in terms of income. He has his own business that is all his through hard work, and has aspirations of becoming a famous designer. There is no need to insult Frew about his work clothes or his choosing not to make a suit for himself.…

Revenue != Net Income.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#146

Post by pessimist » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 5:46 AM UTC

This problem is as old as the Industrial Revolution, not exactly news.

I moved to India and here I can afford tons of household help. For example, I have a chauffeur, who comes from a community of highly skilled weavers who make traditional fabrics like this: http://bannacreations.blogspot.in/2012/02/ilkal-story.html.

Basically, there is simply not enough demand for those skills. So he chucks his skill - handed down from father to son for generations - learns English and driving, and moves to the city. He now hopes to soon move out from his slum to a real house. I wish him luck - he is ambitious and hard-working, and is making a niche for himself in a challenging world.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#147

Post by nopassrecover » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 6:18 AM UTC

blacksmythe wrote: post #119

fooandbarify wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

patio11, pg, tptacek... who is the fourth? I'm on the lookout for more very high quality contributors; sticking to their feeds instead of the front page (I still check front and new, just not as often) has greatly increased the value of this site for me. (Thanks Patrick, Thomas, and Paul!)

edw519, cperciva, cletus, jrockway, swombat, mark_l_watson, andrewcooke, ... >> I'm on the lookout for more very high quality contributors; As am I.

Yeah was surprised a few of these names hadn't come out yet.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#148

Post by haraball » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 6:51 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #126

robomartin wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time proponents of price-elasticity make me laugh. And, I do say this with respect. I used to be one of these proponents. I inhaled business book after business book once done with engineering school. And, I played the game. And I got my ass handed to me. In the real world price elasticity works within a very narrow range that is industry and product specific and can --and usually is-- highly dependent on…

> He can't experiment with pricing too much as word of mouth would destroy his business. If customer B learns that he paid more for the suit that his friend, customer A bought all hell breaks loose. I agree he would need to be careful. But in this case because there are so many trivial ways in which he can differentiate the products in ways that will sufficiently justify price differences: * Use more expensive materi…

What takes time is to create the pattern and the last for a bespoke shoemaker, so the additional pair of shoes are not that time demanding to make.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#149

Post by thesilentist » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 7:01 AM UTC

lanstein wrote: post #71

eric_j_j wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm headed to a suit tailoring event that Indochino is doing in downtown San Francisco in a couple weeks. You can get measured for free and order right there it sounds like. Prices are decent ($400) and people here say the quality/fit is spot on. Glad to hear the industry is still alive for craftsmen like Frew. http://www.indochino.com/traveling-tailor/display

Thanks, both of you.

I've had experience with both Spoon Tailor and Indochino. TL;DR: go with Spoon over Indochino if it's in your price range.

I've used Spoon for about 9 shirts and talked with them extensively about their MTM suiting. The quality is much higher on their suiting and the fabrics are nicer. Plus, as far as MTM goes their process is closer to bespoke. Multiple fittings are involved and they have a local tailor that does the pattern, if I recall.

Indochino's an affordable option out there, but they're definitely going the cheaper MTM route. Their suits are based off of ready-made patterns. They can't really do stuff like account for sloped shoulders or weird drops. Their details are also a lot more "fashion forward" (like skinny lapels) that will look dated in a few years. I went to their traveling tailor event in Chicago a few weeks ago and got a suit made up for me as a review unit for a blog I write and I can't say I'd highly recommend them over other MTM services that might charge more or ready-to-wear options that cost the same.

If you're looking for something at Indochino prices yet in "ready to wear", then I'd suggest checking out Suit Supply. Decent cuts, good fabric, good construction, affordable intro-level prices.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#150

Post by redbad » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 7:03 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #101

potatolicious wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and so what? A legit ergonomic keyboard is also easily 10-15x the cost of a no-name USB keyboard that "works just as well". A MacBook Pro is easily 2x the cost of something that has the same specs on paper. A pro-grade DSLR is 4-5x the cost of a consumer-grade DSLR but in principle work the same. I've gone from wearing random cheap jeans to wearing $150-200 fitted jeans, and the difference is immense. It's comfo…

The question is: can I find something equivalent for less cost. My experience has been, with sufficient searching (and yes, there's a time cost to that), yes, I can. The upsides: I can see, feel, and fit the garment before buying it. When committing to tailored items, particularly online, no such luck. Clothing's pretty personal, I've never much been a fan of the online or mail-order experience. Their only advantage…

    The question is: can I find something equivalent for
    less cost. My experience has been, with sufficient
    searching (and yes, there's a time cost to that), yes,
    I can.

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing equivalent to Outlier on the market today, much less anything at a lower price point. If you have information to the contrary, please do share.