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What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

nytimes.com

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Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#101

Post by dredmorbius »

potatolicious wrote: post #93
dredmorbius wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... at 4.5x the price of an OTR pair of slacks. Really? Even counting a nice (but not extravagant) pair, easily 2x the cost.

Yes, and so what? A legit ergonomic keyboard is also easily 10-15x the cost of a no-name USB keyboard that "works just as well". A MacBook Pro is easily 2x the cost of something that has the same specs on paper. A pro-grade DSLR is 4-5x the cost of a consumer-grade DSLR but in principle work the same. I've gone from wearing random cheap jeans to wearing $150-200 fitted jeans, and the difference is immense. It's comfo…

The question is: can I find something equivalent for less cost.

My experience has been, with sufficient searching (and yes, there's a time cost to that), yes, I can.

The upsides: I can see, feel, and fit the garment before buying it. When committing to tailored items, particularly online, no such luck. Clothing's pretty personal, I've never much been a fan of the online or mail-order experience. Their only advantage is that the in-store experience is rapidly getting to be as bad or worse.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#103

Post by stan_rogers »

emmapersky wrote: post #77
dredmorbius wrote: post #40

Yet another submarine: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing. $4000 is several times what I spend on clothes in a year. It's several times what I spend on clothes in several years. There's a far less expensive option that's highly satisficing. Suits, once an inexpensive, practical, standardized alternative to more ornate and expensive clothing, are now…

You don't wear a bespoke suit to fit the minimal requirements for a given occasion, you do it because of the way it makes you feel - there is nothing quite like wearing an item of clothing that is perfect in every possible way. It's really not comparable to a made-to-measure which tends to follow one of a set of patterns, none of which might be perfect for you. If I wore suits I would have a bespoke one made, but as…

Women tend to be very underserviced compared to men in any case. Or at least that used to be so -- men have, for some inexplicable reason, come to accept a rather low level of basic service when buying clothing these days. Perhaps it is because casual attire is much more casual than it once was; dungarees were something one might have worn for rough or dirty work at one time.

I grew up in suits, or at least in jackets and ties. I've worn bespoke when I could afford it, including (then) casual tweeds. But in my youth, I was a more-or-less off the rack kind of guy. "Off the rack", in those days, meant that somebody would spend the better part of an hour with a marking chalk playing with the lay of the collar, the rotation of the shouders, the vent(s) and armholes (to the extent possible), and so on -- and that's in addition to the expected tweaks to the sleeve length, moving cuff buttons, hemming and cuffing trousers, altering the waist and stride to fit, and so on. That was part of the price of a $400 suit in the '80s, even at a chain men's wear store. Extra-cost alterations were things that went right down to the structure of the garment.

I was absolutely shocked to see what my wife had to put up with. Not only were the prices way out of line (at the same price level, things like seam finishing and so on are nowhere near as well-attended-to in women's wear as in men's wear, even if the garments themselves are comparable -- say something like a blazer). Then everything was extra, including the stuff that absolutely has to happen, like hemming a skirt or a pair of slacks. Ridiculous. You ought to throw yourselves a little revolution.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#104

Post by sopooneo »

harryh wrote: post #75
patio11 wrote: post #60

Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so m…

The real question is why hasn't he done this already? It's a fairly obvious solution. I suspect that there is some other force at work here, though I'm at a loss to guess what it might be. It's too bad that the NYTimes didn't raise this question.

Absolutely. I hate it when otherwise compelling articles fail to even raise a screamingly obvious question, much less answer it. The cynical me wonders if it is because the writers actually do know the answer, and it somehow weakens or distracts from their point. Or perhaps requires the telling of an impolite truth.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#105

Post by noahc »

wisty wrote: post #98
noahc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And maybe it just might work... He doesn't have to jump from $4k to $10k. There's a demand curve and by raising prices from $4k to $5k and up he'll figure out where he can sit. More importantly, he's already at $4k. The person that spends $4k on a suit isn't going to sneeze at $8k. The person who spends $120 for a suit, throws a fit at $240.

> There's a demand curve That's commonly believed by mainstream economists, as an article of faith. That there is a demand curve, and it always goes down. It's not always true, unless a huge number of axioms hold (none of which are true). It's most obviously not true for prestige goods, which go up in demand as price rises (and then go down as no-one is able to afford them). Demand curves can be wacky, even discontin…

I'm not sure we disagree that much.

I would argue that:

1. There is a demand curve, or at least we can plot demand. I would agree it can be wacky.

2. It is very likely that even if we get the exact demand curve wrong, it is probably a net win for him to raise his prices given that he is turning down work.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#106

Post by nl »

mikescar wrote: post #67
nl wrote: post #63

Even the richest customer simply has to wait — sometimes months — before the new suit is finished. No wonder so many pass up a $4,000 bespoke suit for a ready-to-wear Kiton version at twice the price. Isn't it pretty clear here that he should raise prices dramatically ? Clearly the demand is there (people spend twice the price on a inferior product).

Huh? The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the time defining product specs, and don't have to wait. If so many pass up a 50% discount to get immediate satisfaction, they aren't likely to change their preference for waiting once the product they already didn't buy becomes dramatically more expensive.

The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the time defining product specs, and don't have to wait.

Raising the price stops you competing in the whole "I need a new suit" market. Now you are in the custom luxury good market, and there the time to buy isn't an inconvenience, it is a feature.

The whole pay-to-pick-my-Ferrari-up-in-Maranello takes a lot longer than the normal Ferrari ordering process (and is hugely inconvenient) and yet still is used by a reasonable number of orders.

You don't buy a Ferrari for transport, nor do you buy a luxury suit to cover your nakedness.

If people can sell $500,000 watches[1], then a $20,000 suit seems reasonable, especially when it comes with custom consultations etc..

[1] http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/10/richard-mille-rm027-rafael-...

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#107

Post by sopooneo »

patio11 wrote: post #60

Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so m…

I agree, and that was the first thought I had. However, I have found that when people act in bizarre ways, it is sometimes because they are crazy, unintelligent, or ignorant. But much more often it is because they know something you don't know.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#108

Post by bradleyjg »

pfedor wrote: post #84
nl wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing. Why do you think the suit is dead? I wear a suit (not always, but often enough to have an opinion). I've never bought an expensive suit, but I nor do I buy cheap suits. I guess I generally spend around $500. I work with people who spend $2000 on suits though. These aren't bespoke, but are from nice fabrics and cut very well (eg, Hugo Boss etc). I'm n…

Why do you think the suit is dead? Don't know about other places, but at least in NoCal high status people don't wear suits. Since the only function of a suit is status signaling, it seems just a matter of time until everyone else catches up and suits will be replaced by bike jerseys or whatever.

I know it may not seem that way sometimes, but NoCal is not the entire world - nor does the entire world take their cultural cues from NoCal.

The suit is very much alive in NY, in London, the entire legal world, and in many other places. That's just during the day.

For formal events / outings it is SF that is the extreme outlier. In the rest of the country if you are going to a fancy restaurant, a wedding, an awards dinner or the like you wear a suit. The original rational for the suit actually still holds for these occasions - it removes the need to constantly chase the latest fashions, as many woman and all hipsters must.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#109

Post by nl »

pfedor wrote: post #84
nl wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing. Why do you think the suit is dead? I wear a suit (not always, but often enough to have an opinion). I've never bought an expensive suit, but I nor do I buy cheap suits. I guess I generally spend around $500. I work with people who spend $2000 on suits though. These aren't bespoke, but are from nice fabrics and cut very well (eg, Hugo Boss etc). I'm n…

Why do you think the suit is dead? Don't know about other places, but at least in NoCal high status people don't wear suits. Since the only function of a suit is status signaling, it seems just a matter of time until everyone else catches up and suits will be replaced by bike jerseys or whatever.

Since the only function of a suit is status signaling

Jack Dorsey has whole articles written about the suits he wears. I think he is high status however you measure it.

Anyway, it is also function signalling. Suited people are those people who talk to other suited people.

Don't know about other places, but at least in NoCal high status people don't wear suits.

Yes, I understand that.

I even said "In my experience location and field of work makes a bigger difference to suit wearing than anything else."

Somewhat surprisingly for those of us in technology, the Silicon Valley look hasn't proved very influential in the fashion world.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#110

Post by joewee »

Please do not order a suit off the internet. That is the worst idea ever.

I own eight suits and half dozen blazers. My first suits and blazers were all off the rack, including the high end brooks brothers. And they all fit me horribly. I never wear them now.

I didn't realize how horrible they fit until I went to bespoke suits and shirts. So from someone who wasted a lot of money do yourself a favor, go to the best shirt maker in your city and have a custom shirt made. Be prepared to spend up to $300 for the shirt (though $200 is more reasonable). Then use that as your template and send it to a tailor in hong kong who will make duplicates of the shirt with the same measurement for $30 each in the fabric selection of your choice. Best investment ever. I recommend http://www.jantzentailor.com/

For suits, I can't help you if you are in America. But if you are going to order a suit in the USA try to get a british cut, the style that Frew uses. Just don't order something off the internet. Lots of factors that go into what makes a quality suit that can't be expressed online.

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