Live data from Hacker News

Orion Browser

kagi.com

41–50 of 99 posts

Re: Orion Browser

#41
post #11

I really like Kagi, but I'm starting to get that same sense of anticipatory melancholy I used to get when I found a really good drug dealer back in the day - this product or service is fantastic, and I'm very happy to be able to give it money, but I recognize this is a short term affair and some day I'll be back to having to search for it again. I would continue to pay Kagi $10 a month forever for exactly the product…

Kagi founder here. I like simplicity too, but if that is the only thing I cared about I would have never attempted to build a paid search engine. We started working on the browser before we started working on search. There were many browsers and search engines before us, and all of them failed because you can not compete with an ecosystem company (Google) with a single product. If your customers use your search engin…

I think it depends on what you're trying to do, and I also think the landscape is different right now than it would have been 5 years ago.

I'd actually view the browser as a more difficult market to crack than search, because there are plenty of decent free options that have not obviously succumbed to the lure of advertising revenue yet. You're also always playing a "red queen's race" with the browser market where that friction you mention with Gmail and other google properties can be used to push people away from your browser. Similarly, for email, Fastmail and Proton are both fine answers for what to do without Google, and both cover a wide enough spread of the market that I'm not really looking for alternatives (and, relatedly, running an email service _sucks_ - if you haven't hired someone with large-scale public email service experience yet, you absolutely need to do so, because it's one of the worst problems on the internet).

The search market is different - you are, to the best of my knowledge, the only actual paid search engine out there, which means you're the only one whose interests align with mine and the only one who can pursue a product strategy of actually delivering the best available information to me.

This is part of why I'm concerned about dilution of focus - as a dedicated Kagi subscriber, the reason I'm here is because you offer good search aligned with my interests, and that's why I'm going to keep paying you money. The additional products in the pipeline weren't requirements to get or keep my business, and I suspect it's the same for many of your subscribers. I trust you to run your business - you've created a great product that I'm happy to pay for, so you've earned that - but please make sure you keep the search product top of mind and make sure that's a sustainable business.

Re: Orion Browser

#42
post #26
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the extremely stupid reasons kagi needs to develop a browser is because ios safari prevents setting kagi as the default search engine, so they have to do some terrible hacks to get it to kind of work.

Yeah. That’s one reason I stopped using Kagi. Its not their fault but it is what it is.

That seems wild to me, but admittedly I don't search from the address bar at all. Is setting your preferred search engine as your homepage and opening a new tab to search really such a huge burden?

Re: Orion Browser

#43
I've used it previously and echo the other sentiments here about some bugs being blockers, but overall enjoyed the experience. Ultimately though, unless they get access to the APIs to auto-fill OTP codes from messages/email, I'm unlikely to switch from Safari

Re: Orion Browser

#45
post #11

I really like Kagi, but I'm starting to get that same sense of anticipatory melancholy I used to get when I found a really good drug dealer back in the day - this product or service is fantastic, and I'm very happy to be able to give it money, but I recognize this is a short term affair and some day I'll be back to having to search for it again. I would continue to pay Kagi $10 a month forever for exactly the product…

> I have zero additional product wants or needs,

> I'd really like all of this manic product energy to be going towards the core product

What would that energy do if you don't need anything???

Re: Orion Browser

#46
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. That’s one reason I stopped using Kagi. Its not their fault but it is what it is.

That seems wild to me, but admittedly I don't search from the address bar at all. Is setting your preferred search engine as your homepage and opening a new tab to search really such a huge burden?

Yes. I do not tend to launch new tabs. I almost always use a single tab for browsing. Only when I need to keep something around then I launch a new tab to preserve the old one.

That means the address bar is my main interaction with the browser.

Re: Orion Browser

#47
post #11

I really like Kagi, but I'm starting to get that same sense of anticipatory melancholy I used to get when I found a really good drug dealer back in the day - this product or service is fantastic, and I'm very happy to be able to give it money, but I recognize this is a short term affair and some day I'll be back to having to search for it again. I would continue to pay Kagi $10 a month forever for exactly the product…

Kagi founder here. I like simplicity too, but if that is the only thing I cared about I would have never attempted to build a paid search engine. We started working on the browser before we started working on search. There were many browsers and search engines before us, and all of them failed because you can not compete with an ecosystem company (Google) with a single product. If your customers use your search engin…

Do many Kagi customers use Orion? Are you having trouble retaining ones who don't?

> I am 100% sure

I'm definitely less than 100% sure. (I'd take a bet at those odds.)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43982643

Re: Orion Browser

#48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kagi founder here. I like simplicity too, but if that is the only thing I cared about I would have never attempted to build a paid search engine. We started working on the browser before we started working on search. There were many browsers and search engines before us, and all of them failed because you can not compete with an ecosystem company (Google) with a single product. If your customers use your search engin…

I think it depends on what you're trying to do, and I also think the landscape is different right now than it would have been 5 years ago. I'd actually view the browser as a more difficult market to crack than search, because there are plenty of decent free options that have not obviously succumbed to the lure of advertising revenue yet. You're also always playing a "red queen's race" with the browser market where th…

> but please make sure you keep the search product top of mind and make sure that's a sustainable business.

Having best web search in the world has been our bread&butter from day one. This is what so many people pay us for!

Great search becomes even more important in the age of agents - model quality is converging to the same spot across frontier models and what will make great answers different from mediocre ones is the quality of search fed to them. We are currently testing v2 of our Search API with select partners and plan to make this generally available soon.

We 100% intend to continue to dominate this and we heavilly invest and innovate in search quality space. A major announcement soon.

Re: Orion Browser

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kagi founder here. I like simplicity too, but if that is the only thing I cared about I would have never attempted to build a paid search engine. We started working on the browser before we started working on search. There were many browsers and search engines before us, and all of them failed because you can not compete with an ecosystem company (Google) with a single product. If your customers use your search engin…

Do many Kagi customers use Orion? Are you having trouble retaining ones who don't? > I am 100% sure I'm definitely less than 100% sure. (I'd take a bet at those odds.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43982643

Many customers do, and in fact Orion feedback forum [1] is more active than Kagi feedback forum [2] (we do not have any telemetry and all product input is given directly by our users).

While Kagi has "only" about 50k customers, Orion was downloaded more than a million times last year and continues to be a major distribution channel and entry point for the Kagi eco-sytem. (you are not seeing any ads for Kagi right? Our products are our "ads", that is how we grow + wonderful user community)

And while you can use Kagi in any browser, it is a really nice experience when you use Orion (and it will get only better as we build more integrations). We are also aware about cross-platform users - which is why we are also developing Orion for Linux as the next platform, with more to come.

Not sure what point you wanted to make by linking to the comment - happy to address it after clarification.

[1] https://orionfeedback.org

[2] https://kagifeedback.org

Re: Orion Browser

#50

I've used it previously and echo the other sentiments here about some bugs being blockers, but overall enjoyed the experience. Ultimately though, unless they get access to the APIs to auto-fill OTP codes from messages/email, I'm unlikely to switch from Safari

This has been resolved by macOS Sequoia - now works out of box in Orion.
Post reply on HN