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Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

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Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#51

Post by dmesg »

graemep wrote: post #44
dmesg wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is against it and the law was revoked twice already by liberal politician SLS: 2nd March 2010 - 1 BvR 256/08 I don't like this rhetorical style were easy to prove facts are denounced with questions to evoke uncertainty. If you now say this is not applicable as this is about storing connection data you don't understand the issue in full: This is a deeper incision than just storing connection logs. This violates a m…

No, I am not arguing anything, I was just asking.

Right sorry the topic is very exhausting and I extrapolated my frustration, assuming you are interested, it came back in 2015 and was canned again in 2019: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorratsdatenspeicherung_in_Deu...

I am tired of Germany needing constant chemos because unconstitutional laws grow back. They pass faster into action, than you can excise them in Karlsruhe. The mechanism for Germany to self-heal is very very slow. This is an imbalance that makes it hard to fight such laws. They change a miniscule detail and it can pass a 3rd and 4th time.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#52

Post by vaylian »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #26

Time to move to self hosted messaging platforms or go back to GPG encrypted messages. And politicians complain that democracy is losing it's appeal! What's the difference between what the EU wants to do and what is being done in autocracies like China and Russia? Snooping on all messages and conversations, even the Stasi did not have this much power!

> Time to move to self hosted messaging platforms or go back to GPG encrypted messages.

That works only if all your contacts are technically educated enough. It's more important to look for political solutions than technical workarounds. We need to protect the communication of everyone by preventing this law from passing.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#53

Post by aleph_minus_one »

afarah1 wrote: post #50
McDyver wrote: post #30

They make it really difficult to fight any of this. You have to, individually - find a representative, their contact info, state your case, hope it's the correct person, hope your mail doesn't go unnoticed, hope that it will be properly read, hope it changes their mind. This is "lobbying" by the people in a disorganised way, trying to fight organised lobbying. This is a barrier that puts lots of people off, even if t…

Same for any legislation piece. A law that costs 100M people $1 and benefits 100 people with $1M. Would be, as you noted, costly to oppose, not worth the $1 nor the time. And at the same time, very profitable for the 100 to spend hundreds of thousands and great effort lobbying for. It's just the power structure of any representative legislature. "In vain do we fly to the many"...

A possible countermeasure could be to make the life of politicians (which we will of course all name individually) who voted for such laws a hell on earth ...

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#54

Post by HPsquared »

McDyver wrote: post #30

They make it really difficult to fight any of this. You have to, individually - find a representative, their contact info, state your case, hope it's the correct person, hope your mail doesn't go unnoticed, hope that it will be properly read, hope it changes their mind. This is "lobbying" by the people in a disorganised way, trying to fight organised lobbying. This is a barrier that puts lots of people off, even if t…

The proposing side can be centralised and organised; the opposition diffuse and disorganised. Hence the continual growth of all forms of legislation.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#55

Post by LexiMax »

RegnisGnaw wrote: post #35
Havoc wrote: post #19

Entire world seems to be making a pivot to surveillance state :(

China has shown the world the way and most countries likes it.

They seem to be missing a critical piece - for the horrors that China inflicted on its own population, it also become a preeminent world power and pulled millions out of poverty.

What seems to be happening elsewhere is an organized robbery of state institutions by politicians and oligarchs, with oppression and censorship used to keep people from pointing out the obvious.

Maybe they're not paying attention to the part of that cycle where they start falling out of windows.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#56

Post by IncreasePosts »

bee_rider wrote: post #45
IncreasePosts wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just saying "It's unconstitutional" doesn't really cut it. It's a question for the courts to decide (based on the constitution).

A constitution is the basic big-picture law of the country. The court’s interpretation should be easy to guess. Otherwise, the people won’t feel like it is their document. Rule of law is aided by laws that people know how to follow.

At least in America, a classic go to for Republican and democrats alike for opposing legislation is "that's unconstitutional!"

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#57

Post by radicalbyte »

pimlottc wrote: post #42

Argh, red and green colors are not great for accessibility, I had to look hard to find the countries that were opposed/neutral (Poland, Austria and Netherlands, afaict)

NL should be because, at least so far, they've been listening to the experts (many who are ex-colleagues & friends of mine). We have elections later in the year and that can change (although they're looking positive so far).

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#58

Post by aleph_minus_one »

anaisbetts wrote: post #39
Havoc wrote: post #19

Entire world seems to be making a pivot to surveillance state :(

The entire world realized that now that the Internet has killed off all of the third places / IRL meetings, and social media killed off the decentralized Internet, it's quite easy to fully control the discourse around any topic, since only a few social media organizations effectively decide what everyone sees (even if you're independent, Social Media decides which ideas/content gets traffic). Question is, how do we g…

> Question is, how do we get ourselves out of this tar pit?

Simple:

A Cypherpunk's Manifesto

by Eric Hughes

written 9 March 1993

https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#59

Post by soulofmischief »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #49
McDyver wrote: post #30

They make it really difficult to fight any of this. You have to, individually - find a representative, their contact info, state your case, hope it's the correct person, hope your mail doesn't go unnoticed, hope that it will be properly read, hope it changes their mind. This is "lobbying" by the people in a disorganised way, trying to fight organised lobbying. This is a barrier that puts lots of people off, even if t…

One of the failings of most modern democracies is that if a measure doesn't pass, nothing prohibits it from being introduced again immediately. I've seen ballot initiatives simply get copy pasted onto each election by city council until they happen to pass.

A well-funded institution will always outlast an individual or smaller organization in a war of attrition. I think a modern Constitution needs to consider 19-20th-century concepts such as game theory if it has any hope of preventing eventual corruption.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#60

Post by prophesi »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #58
anaisbetts wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire world realized that now that the Internet has killed off all of the third places / IRL meetings, and social media killed off the decentralized Internet, it's quite easy to fully control the discourse around any topic, since only a few social media organizations effectively decide what everyone sees (even if you're independent, Social Media decides which ideas/content gets traffic). Question is, how do we g…

> Question is, how do we get ourselves out of this tar pit? Simple: A Cypherpunk's Manifesto by Eric Hughes written 9 March 1993 https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html

I don't think there are actionable items in that manifesto, and was written during the RSA munitions debate.
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