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.NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

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Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#121

Post by legulere »

Alupis wrote: post #63
atombender wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know about any sizeable open source projects written in C#, other than what Microsoft has produced? I rarely come across anything written in it.

It's a curious thing, the .NET ecosystem. The overwhelming majority of it's ecosystem seems to be dominated by Microsoft first-party libraries and frameworks. 3rd party libraries and frameworks seem to either get swallowed up by Microsoft, killed, or never reach critical-mass. Often in the .NET ecosystem, it seems there is exactly one library or framework for thing $X or $Y. Whereas in the JVM ecosystem, you have 30+…

There are several logging libraries for .net as well, microsoft even lists them: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/extensions/log...

Libraries getting swallowed up is not so bad as it sounds. For instance for web frameworks there was a phase of experimentation with projects like Nancy that inspired changes for asp.net core. There is still alternatives like fast endpoints.

Also you have things happening like integrated system.text.json replacing newtonsoft.json that over time took on some cruft.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#122

Post by orphea »

nartho wrote: post #91
ewoodrich wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last few .NET updates have been pretty much effortless updates for us. These are internal web apps and not using really esoteric C# features but that probably describes a reasonably large percentage of enterprise .NET adoption.

I don't think they introduced any breaking changes after .NET 6

Every version had breaking changes, they could not affect you too much though: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/compatibility/...

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#123

Post by legulere »

atombender wrote: post #50
tester756 wrote: post #11

.NET was the most sane programming ecosystem that I worked in. Great CLI, great package manager, very good stdlib, strong IDEs/Debuggers, etc. but sadly interesting jobs like OSes, databases and compilers are way less common than in C++ world :(

Do you know about any sizeable open source projects written in C#, other than what Microsoft has produced? I rarely come across anything written in it.

Bitwarden

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#124

Post by pjmlp »

cogman10 wrote: post #65
pjmlp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt about TS.Net, given the rewrite in Go decision. .NET nowadays has a serious adoption problem, and they should spend more time talking with their own colleagues at Azure, about their use of Java, Go, Rust.

I blame historic microsoft for their anti-oss stance. It kneecapped the .net ecosystem for over a decade and created an attitude of "if it isn't in .NET, I won't use it".

That has certainly played a role, however that is common to Windows development culture in general.

The 3x "Developers !" meme isn't for nothing, Microsoft just like Apple (and NeXT), always a full stack development experience story.

Everything that one needs is there on the full Visual Studio Professional, and then there was the ecosystem of small indie developers and MS Partners building on top of that.

That is quite different from UNIX FOSS culture, and has also been a friction point to those that went Apple without understanding that also have that on their DNA, regardless of OS X foundations.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#125

Post by pjmlp »

reactordev wrote: post #75
cogman10 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame historic microsoft for their anti-oss stance. It kneecapped the .net ecosystem for over a decade and created an attitude of "if it isn't in .NET, I won't use it".

I agree as well. The hostile attitude towards OSS under Ballmer led to this. Nadella had the correct approach and a year later, started repairing those bridges, joining the Linux Foundation.

Many things under Satya also feel like good old Microsoft, like lack of GUI frameworks for GNU/Linux, killing VS4Mac after the rewrite, dotnet watch drama, profiling tools being VS only,...

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#126

Post by SeriousM »

Salgat wrote: post #105
electroly wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dotnet tool exec" is not that feature; you're thinking of https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-dotnet-run-... which they added to "dotnet run". "dotnet run my-cool-thing.cs" "dotnet tool exec" is so you can run third party command line tools like csharpier that previously required "dotnet tool install" before you could use them. For example, in https://csharpier.com/docs/Installation you can now simply d…

dotnet run *.cs is my favorite new feature for scripting. It has basically replaced powershell for me. It's trivial to script powerful operations now.

I guess LinqPad will lose some users to this feature.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#127

Post by rafaelmn »

WorldMaker wrote: post #62
rafaelmn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I inherited an MVC app that has a bunch of jQuery rendering crap and I would like to move to server side components - since you seem to be into Blazor Server side - have you heard of HTMX ? What would you say would be the benefit of Blazor vs HTMX and Razor Pages for subviews ? My experience with Microsoft UI toolkits after winforms, is that they are all janky over-engineered stuff (Silverlight/WPF/Xamarin/Maui) terr…

I still haven't found a use-case for the websocket Blazor Hybrid and it still smells so much like the worst mistakes of the original ASP (before .NET) and the `runat="client"` versus `runat="server"` confusions. Blazor WASM makes some sense if Silverlight ever made sense for a project: it's a way to ship C# directly to the browser for maximal code sharing with other C# projects in a C# ecosystem. It's basically "what…

>I still haven't found a use-case for the websocket Blazor Hybrid and it still smells so much like the worst mistakes of the original ASP (before .NET) and the `runat="client"` versus `runat="server"` confusions.

That is exactly my read of it, especially given Microsoft track record on delivering with stuff like this.

Not sure about the Silverlight comparison - in the days of Flash, browsers did not even have a way to stream video reliably, nowadays it just cramming a square peg in to a round hole - heavyweight runtime built on multithreading crammed to a single threaded event loop. I have not tried it - but after using .net in much more powerful/native envs like Android - I know for a fact that the iteration/build/debugging story sucks compared to native JS/TS. Also as bad JS is, TS makes it saner, tooling has matured and DOM APIs are built for JS.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#128

Post by rafaelmn »

terandle wrote: post #77
rafaelmn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I inherited an MVC app that has a bunch of jQuery rendering crap and I would like to move to server side components - since you seem to be into Blazor Server side - have you heard of HTMX ? What would you say would be the benefit of Blazor vs HTMX and Razor Pages for subviews ? My experience with Microsoft UI toolkits after winforms, is that they are all janky over-engineered stuff (Silverlight/WPF/Xamarin/Maui) terr…

Blazor static server side + HTMX is probably the only way to make a cost efficient and performant version of Blazor suitable for public websites. WASM is way too big and slow, Websockets take up server resources and cause problems with timeouts where the user has to refresh their screen losing all state.

What would be the benefit over Razor pages tho ? Component model ? Feels like partial views and razor templates might not be the cleanest/dry-est solution but would make the implementation super straightforawd.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#129

Post by mathverse »

pjmlp wrote: post #16
reactordev wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The stability comes from its ecosystem though. Enterprise Software. Where things like meticulous use of Omit and Task are common place and really REALLY bad things happen if you fuck up. But besides that, there’s a healthy gamedev community that embraced C# early and have been using it ever since. There’s C++ MFC guys that got duped into WPF and have been supporting it ever since. Winforms devs that are stil…

I very much doubt about TS.Net, given the rewrite in Go decision. .NET nowadays has a serious adoption problem, and they should spend more time talking with their own colleagues at Azure, about their use of Java, Go, Rust.

I would not touch C# unless you are already using it. Microsoft proves over and over it cannot be trusted in what they say. Watch what they do:

- basically dont use ant UI framework they say is the future and they are not using themselves - be vary of the future of some of it stuff like C#

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#130

Post by banashark »

recursive wrote: post #80
jug wrote: post #32

My favorite .NET 10 feature so far is not within the .NET library itself, but `dotnet tool exec` to run C# files as scripts without a build step. This has been available in F# for a long time via `dotnet fsi`, and for C# also via the third party cs-script tool. It took a surprisingly long time to officially reach the primary .NET language! I only really wish C# would’ve been directly integrated as an alternative scri…

I've wanted this for a long time. After reading this link, and the MS release announcement, I still don't understand what a "tool" is, or how you can use `tool exec` to run a single *.cs file. Is there a straight-forward recipe anywhere for doing this targeted at absolute simpletons?

Well if you're familiar with the node ecosystem it's a corollary for npx/bunx/etc.

It is so that folks can build and run "tools" that are executed, utilizing the nuget ecosystem.

Relevant links in the dotnet docs (was just a quick google away):

* https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/global-t...

* https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/global-t...

It's actually a top-level doc section in the primary dotnet docs (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/).

To boil it down: you create a console app, add a couple of attributes to the solution file (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/global-t...). Packaging and publishing to nuget (if you want to share with others) is via `dotnet pack` and `dotnet nuget push` with some flags.

I do have to say it's actually very well documented.

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