How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy • Hacker News Board

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#231

Post by brokegrammer » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 3:24 PM UTC

dominicrose wrote: post #217

brokegrammer wrote: post #216

1. Dependencies break your project only if added unpinned. Most modern package managers will pin dependencies for you. Now, what if a dependency does break? Well, you can replace it with another dependency, or you can write one from scratch. Using dependencies allows you to save time earlier, and then only spend time writing your own libraries once you hit a roadblock. 2. Frameworks are similar to dependencies. They…

I fixed my 10 year-old webapp yesterday. There were only a couple of easy-to-fix issues. I could've fixed them without AI but AI does help speed things up. The problem is when looking at it 10 years later I want to rebuild it from scratch because the code and build system look so different than what we do now. I'm not sure yet if it will take a long time though, at least if I accept to keep jquery and avoid typescrip…

I could have built an web app in 2015 using C without any frameworks or build system. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to rewrite it from scratch in 2025.

Rewriting things from scratch is something that everyone wants to do as time passes, regardless of the tech stack used initially.

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#232

Post by brokegrammer » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 3:28 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #220

brokegrammer wrote: post #216

1. Dependencies break your project only if added unpinned. Most modern package managers will pin dependencies for you. Now, what if a dependency does break? Well, you can replace it with another dependency, or you can write one from scratch. Using dependencies allows you to save time earlier, and then only spend time writing your own libraries once you hit a roadblock. 2. Frameworks are similar to dependencies. They…

Every pinned dependecy is a security vulnerability, sooner or later.

Once a dependency turns into a security vulnerability, you can either replace it, or write your own library like I suggested. It's more cost effective and time efficient than writing your own libraries from scratch for every project.

For example, I'd rather install React Router for routing in a React app instead of writing my own routing library. I guess some people will reply "grrr React, just use static HTML bro". Okay cool.

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#233

Post by bubblyworld » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 3:37 PM UTC

computerdork wrote: post #154

bubblyworld wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need for the random snark? I mean, again, we're in extremely obvious territory here. Just doesn't seem appropriate for hacker news front-page (to me).

Hmm, was only mildly snarky in my opinion

I agree, but my ego is incredibly fragile sometimes.

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#234

Post by brokegrammer » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 3:38 PM UTC

austin-cheney wrote: post #222

brokegrammer wrote: post #216

1. Dependencies break your project only if added unpinned. Most modern package managers will pin dependencies for you. Now, what if a dependency does break? Well, you can replace it with another dependency, or you can write one from scratch. Using dependencies allows you to save time earlier, and then only spend time writing your own libraries once you hit a roadblock. 2. Frameworks are similar to dependencies. They…

Your comment reads like someone who deliberately does not measure things to avoid confrontations against your conveniences and biases. For example modern compilation may very well be faster than in the past, but your application and experience could be still even faster without compilation. Frameworks also come at a substantial cost. They are highly restrictive, super massive, and almost always unnecessary. I can und…

> your application and experience could be still even faster without compilation

I doubt it. Compilation actually improves developer experience and speeds up the process of releasing apps because you have a standardized way to release your app to production.

I seriously can't understand the hate against compilation because it's never been a roadblock for me, especially these days when most builds take a few seconds on slow CPUs. I guess it's cool to hate things for no reason.

> Frameworks also come at a substantial cost. They are highly restrictive, super massive, and almost always unnecessary.

This is highly subjective. Frameworks have been nothing but a huge productivity boost for me. For example, I can spin up feature-complete API using FastAPI in a few hours instead of spending weeks building my own framework to do the same thing.

> People tend to prefer frameworks when they lack the confidence to build without them

Doubt it. People mostly choose frameworks because they want to get work done instead of wasting their employer's money on non-profitable endeavours.

> for those of us that frequently measure things large frameworks are always a net negative

Could be that you're measuring the wrong thing. At the end of the day, engineers need to ship features so that the company can generate revenue. Frameworks are great at facilitating that process. I'm no Math expert but this seems like a net positive to me.

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#235

Post by skinkestek » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 4:02 PM UTC

mdavid626 wrote: post #195

superasn wrote: post #38

Always use ORMs and then spend the next year debugging N+1 queries, bloated joins, and mysterious performance issues that only show up in prod. Migrations randomly fail, schema changes are a nightmare, and your team forgets how SQL works. ORMs promise to abstract the database but end up being just another layer you have to fight when things go wrong.

Or just use MongoDB. No ORM needed.

Very practical, like a credit card.

Let's you do what you want here and now and then pay dearly for it afterwards :-)

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#236

Post by npodbielski » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 4:20 PM UTC

chilldsgn wrote: post #196

fifticon wrote: post #89

I have a good one(?): 1. be multiple developers on the same project. 2. for each developer, use your own tools and techniques, insist on only handling those parts of the site that you did with your tools, and insist on never fully understanding those remaining parts of the site the other devs did. This will allow for all sorts of fun, including: - A multiple inconsistent implementations of the same thing - B even bet…

omg. this is what it's currently like at work. and i was told not to bring up coding standards in retrospectives. yes, i am salty AF about this. i'm dying inside.

This is just work. No point in dying over this.

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#237

Post by austin-cheney » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 5:10 PM UTC

brokegrammer wrote: post #234

austin-cheney wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reads like someone who deliberately does not measure things to avoid confrontations against your conveniences and biases. For example modern compilation may very well be faster than in the past, but your application and experience could be still even faster without compilation. Frameworks also come at a substantial cost. They are highly restrictive, super massive, and almost always unnecessary. I can und…

> your application and experience could be still even faster without compilation I doubt it. Compilation actually improves developer experience and speeds up the process of releasing apps because you have a standardized way to release your app to production. I seriously can't understand the hate against compilation because it's never been a roadblock for me, especially these days when most builds take a few seconds o…

Engineers measure things. Junior developers say "doubt it" and guess at the results.

> This is highly subjective.

It is measurable.

At the end of the day actual engineers measure things. Junior developers deliver features.

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#238

Post by brokegrammer » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 5:41 PM UTC

austin-cheney wrote: post #237

brokegrammer wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your application and experience could be still even faster without compilation I doubt it. Compilation actually improves developer experience and speeds up the process of releasing apps because you have a standardized way to release your app to production. I seriously can't understand the hate against compilation because it's never been a roadblock for me, especially these days when most builds take a few seconds o…

Engineers measure things. Junior developers say "doubt it" and guess at the results. > This is highly subjective. It is measurable. At the end of the day actual engineers measure things. Junior developers deliver features.

I would love to see some numbers then. Until then, I'll just assume that using build tools and frameworks means one is a junior developer to be bogus claim.

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#239

Post by computerdork » Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 8:03 PM UTC

bubblyworld wrote: post #233

computerdork wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, was only mildly snarky in my opinion

I agree, but my ego is incredibly fragile sometimes.

good of you to notice, but yeah, in my opinion, you kind of overreacted. All good though:)

Re: How to make websites that will require lots of your time and energy

#240

Post by austin-cheney » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 2:34 AM UTC

brokegrammer wrote: post #238

austin-cheney wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers measure things. Junior developers say "doubt it" and guess at the results. > This is highly subjective. It is measurable. At the end of the day actual engineers measure things. Junior developers deliver features.

I would love to see some numbers then. Until then, I'll just assume that using build tools and frameworks means one is a junior developer to be bogus claim.

> I would love to see some numbers then

Nobody is stopping you from gathering numbers. Again, that is the difference between an actual engineer and a junior developer.