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‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

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Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#561

Criticizing Israel is in vogue but what's the solution? Gazans still hold Israeli hostages, Hamas has publicly stated that more civilian deaths helps their cause [1], they're still fighting, the UN refused to distribute aid because they were getting attacked [2], and Israel unilaterally pulling out of Gaza and leaving them to govern themselves is literally what led to October 7th... 1 - https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11…

> Gazans still hold Israeli hostages, Hamas, not Gazans. Nice play with language. > hostages, The thousands of Palestinian "administrative detainees" held without charge in Israel, are not hostages?

> Hamas, not Gazans. Nice play with language.

Hamas claimed non-Hamas groups and some civilians held hostages. Some hostages were found in captivity guarded by "civilians". Groups like PIJ held hostages.

So what's a nice catch-all term for the above groups?

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#562
post #528

Criticizing Israel is in vogue but what's the solution? Gazans still hold Israeli hostages, Hamas has publicly stated that more civilian deaths helps their cause [1], they're still fighting, the UN refused to distribute aid because they were getting attacked [2], and Israel unilaterally pulling out of Gaza and leaving them to govern themselves is literally what led to October 7th... 1 - https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11…

Are you seriously asking for what's the alternative to the bombing of tens of thousands of innocent people because some hostages were taken?

If it's so obvious give your alternative.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#563
post #426

Criticizing Israel is in vogue but what's the solution? Gazans still hold Israeli hostages, Hamas has publicly stated that more civilian deaths helps their cause [1], they're still fighting, the UN refused to distribute aid because they were getting attacked [2], and Israel unilaterally pulling out of Gaza and leaving them to govern themselves is literally what led to October 7th... 1 - https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11…

This is actually a valid question*, although you probably won't like the answer. One side will concede in a war if there are no gains to be had, and conceding will stem the losses. So at a minimum, the side that wants a victorious peace has to credibly promise not to kill the women and children of the other side. At the moment, Israel is unable to credibly promise that, and it's difficult to see how in the short term…

Israel pulled out of Gaza for nearly 20 years... Then October 7th happened.

> *Apart from implying that civilian Gazans are responsible for the hostages

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/19/middleeast/gaza-neighborhood-...

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#564
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing hatred for Palestinians with hatred for Gazans. Most Israelis do not hate Palestinians. There might be some. There's definitely a lot of hate to Gazans after Oct 7th which is understandable. As to the "what are we supposed to do" part- What are they supposed to do? How would you navigate this better after Oct 7th given the setup/hostages etc.? Israel has officially said many times they are not target…

I was willing to give Israel the benefit of the doubt on this before the 2024 World Central Kitchen Aid convoy attack. That really made me re-evaluate what Israel's general standard level of carefulness is, and how much they weigh the balance between avoiding noncombatants when pursuing military targets. And there have been multiple other incidents since then in which international aid workers have been targeted, whe…

I'm going to agree with you the standard of carefulness has been at times pretty low. If it moves and looks like it might be Hamas - shoot it. I was also not happy about that incident and others. There were also plenty of friendly fire incidents (where soldiers were killed by other soldiers) and the incident where hostages were killed by other soldiers. The level of "discipline" in the IDF isn't what it used to be and definitely the mood in Israel in the early days of the war was of revenge (though the military is not supposed to be thinking like that).

The other side of this coin is when you fight this kind of fight, in a dense urban environment, where combatants intentionally blend with civilians, and use any imaginable tactic they can to attack you, and put weapon stashes in civilian homes, and tunnel entrances etc. Where the enemy may even want to increase civilian casualties on their side, and when you have infantry and armor fighting day in and day out with no sleep and under constant pressure. You are going to have more of these incidents. There might be some at the margin that are actually war crimes but many are just what happens in this kind of war and in this specific scenario.

I'm not going to judge those people when I'm not in their shoes. Including the people who ordered the strike on that convoy. I am Israeli (who hasn't lived there in a long time, but I served in the distance past in the IDF) and I have spoken to people who have been in Gaza. So I know targeting an international aid group is not who we are. I also know that if it was decided that they were Hamas then they'd get obliterated, so that part is not a surprise.

The other thing I do know for sure, is that Hamas started this war and that Israel can not accept Hamas in Gaza after the war and it can not accept Hamas holding hostages after the war.

I'm not sure I see what Israel can do here in terms of Gazan perception of Israel or why it even matters. Many Gazans hate the Hamas but they have no control.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are numerous clips of Rabbis openly promoting the extermination of Palestinians. They use the story of Amalek from the Torah. One of the Rabbis I watched recently said "when you kill the first child it breaks your heart [...] then you start to enjoy it." _Many_ Rabbis are demanding that animals, children, women and unarmed males be "erased." IDF soldiers are bragging about killing and raping civilians on social…

Evidence please!

South Africa's genocide case against Israel [1] is chock full of quotes from high level Israeli officials, including Netanyahu. Check page 59. Obviously much more has been said since that claim was filed, but the nature of genocidal rhetoric is such that you can't get much more extreme. Netanyahu himself repeatedly referenced the biblical tale of Amalek [2] which reaches its climax with this passage [3] : "Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

[1] - https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/So...

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek

[3] - https://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-3.htm

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess saying that the systematic murder of civilians is bad is now a controversial opinion, lmao. No, but this mode of discourse is obnoxious and uncharitable. > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

[flagged]

In spaces that were explicitly created with the intent of hosting civil, respectful discourse, it is always appropriate to insist the that discourse remain civil and respectful.

Part of civility and respect is not demanding that other people see things your way, or supposing that there is something wrong with them if the evidence available to them has not led them to the same conclusion as you. Another part is not ironically laughing because things don't go your way. Another part is not insisting that you are being persecuted for entirely innocent conduct in a way that ignores previously provided explanations for why that conduct was not considered innocent by others.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fine to accept your mom or your neighbor changing their mind, but I think we should be skeptical of politicians changing their mind and consider what hidden, calculated motives they may have for changing it now, when they had plenty of information to reach the same conclusion over a year ago.

Then what does winning actually look like today? Sure. Run against these people and support their political opposition in the next election. But take the win on the short term and get food to Gaza.

It feels more likely that if you push the message "yes, this is great" for the short term win they get elected again next term.

When do you switch from saying "yes these people are great for flip-flopping" to "no these people are terrible don't vote for them", and how do you say it in a way that gets through people's subtlety filters and doesn't make it look like you're flip flopping yourself?

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas has publicly stated that more civilian deaths helps their cause The fact that Israel has no problem creating these civilian deaths is part of the problem. If you claim "human shields" you lose all credibly when you shoot nonetheless. It genuinely horrifying that you accept "well they made us kill all those kids". This would be easy to see if you accepted the Palestinian people as, well, people . > Again, what…

> Two states, stop holding a people in a perpetual refugee camp and you might be surprised and how much less they fight you. And, if you really have two states, then there's a framework for retaliation if it comes to that. This was Israel's solution, its the other side that keeps rejecting this solution and has been rejecting it for many generations now. So after 70 years of that it makes sense Israel are fed up with…

> This was Israel's solution, its the other side that keeps rejecting this solution and has been rejecting it for many generations now.

Arafat and the PLA/PLO, let's be clear, were responsible for many terrorist atrocities. But let's not forget, their softening, and efforts at the negotiation table, put the Israel far right in a tough spot. Questions were really starting to get awkward - "Arafat is negotiating and making concessions, so why isn't Israel?"

That's when Netanyahu and his buddies decided that Israel needed to start supporting Hamas, because Hamas was more hardline than the PLO. And their rise would make it easy to deflect blame away from Israel for being unwilling to explore the peace process.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh, the Zionists got that covered already: 35 US states have passed laws/executive orders prohibiting boycotts of Israel.

Those laws never made any sense to me from a constitutional or even a practical standpoint. What's being banned? Are they supposed to force you to buy things?

The political opinions and political actions are what's being banned. You're free to silently buy whatever you want

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas has publicly stated that more civilian deaths helps their cause The fact that Israel has no problem creating these civilian deaths is part of the problem. If you claim "human shields" you lose all credibly when you shoot nonetheless. It genuinely horrifying that you accept "well they made us kill all those kids". This would be easy to see if you accepted the Palestinian people as, well, people . > Again, what…

Gaza doesn't want two states. It's in their charter. They don't accept the Israeli people as, well, people.

Added by Hamas. When was the last time Gaza had an election?
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