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More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

novonordiskfonden.dk

31–40 of 231 posts

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#31

tl;dr: "One in 15,000 males is born and grows up as a girl. .. this group is up to 50% larger than previously assumed"

Well... that would be more than 20,000 USA-ians. Soon targeted for deportation? Or maybe some therapy ... you know ... to make them 'normal' again.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#32
post #6

> “It is very upsetting for people who have grown up and lived for years believing that they are of a particular sex to suddenly discover that they are actually of the opposite sex. This can be a relief but can also be a loss. For most people it comes as a shock that upends their whole identity. Coping with this can take years,” I find this statement odd. Haven't we already established that chromosomes do not determi…

> Haven't we already established that chromosomes do not determine gender?

I would think so but I think there's a ton of cultural pain points around this. These are people who identify as women but are being told that they may have ambiguity, e.g. they may not be able to bear children/have difficulty getting pregnant or have internal genitals that they would consider manly. I can definitely see that knowledge being painful to experience and trigger some kind of gender dysphoria.

Being told you're genetically abnormal and that this may affect your capacity to bear children, something people have been socialized/instinctively incentivized to desire, will always be shocking imo.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#33

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

Depending on the specifics regarding "intersex", "trans", and other potential overlapping categorizations, estimates range from 1 in 5,500 births (sex chromosomes inconsistent) to as common as redheads (1 in just over 50). Roughly 0.5% is a good split-the-baby estimate, meaning a substantial fraction of the population may have issues with genitalia identification at birth, with another 1% having presentation later through late‑onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia (LOCAH), Klinefelter syndrome, and other chromosomal differences.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#34

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

Ask a person bound by cerebral palsy with a dream to play pro basketball what fairness is.

It's not a dichotomy between "unfair" and "absolutely fair." Things can be more or less fair, and it makes sense to discuss making things "more fair" or "less unfair" even if in doing so, we cannot reach "perfectly fair for everyone, all the time."

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#35
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is a substantially less real concept than sex is.

What does "real" mean here?

It means two people of different races can have a baby together, but two people of the same sex cannot.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#37
post #6

> “It is very upsetting for people who have grown up and lived for years believing that they are of a particular sex to suddenly discover that they are actually of the opposite sex. This can be a relief but can also be a loss. For most people it comes as a shock that upends their whole identity. Coping with this can take years,” I find this statement odd. Haven't we already established that chromosomes do not determi…

Stood out for me as well. For all I care you could tell me I'm genetically a giraffe or I was sent here from Alpha Centauri. If I was fine with it an hour ago when you hadn't told me I'm fine with it now

Good for you. Not everyone is as good or strong as you.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#38
The headline is rather reductive, presumably to be more provocative. The actual frequency of these conditions is hard to measure for several reasons, but other studies generally do not indicate rates this high.

The headline implies that this singular study from the Danish Cytogenetic Central Registry voids previous studies and takes their place as the new, singular source of truth. That's not how epidemiology works, though, so this study should be considered another data point with associated sampling bias, not a refutation of previous statistics.

These cases are the result of genetic variants, so sampling within a single region (as is the case with this study) can't be extrapolated to the entire population.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#39
post #7

To be more precise than the headline: People with disorders of sex development such as Morris or Swyer syndrome have XY chromosomes, but they have female external genitalia, because the sexual development that would normally be triggered by XY chromosomes is somehow suppressed.

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Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#40

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will).

All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot perform anywhere near the level that elite athletes do.

Now, which biological advantages are fair and which are not is determined by society. We have somehow decided that chromosomal advantages are unfair, even though people have exactly as much control over them as they do over the amount of lactic acid they produce or how their amygdala behaves.

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