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Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

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Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now, the only thing that makes credit cards a better proposition is being able to pay without having enough money in the bank, and maybe enjoying greater protection from fraudulent merchants. Rewards is another big one and the reason I personally prefer to use credit cards where possible.

Rewards exist because credit card transaction fees to merchants are very high, though. Europe put a limit on those fees and no credit card rewards exist here.

Sure, but for those of us in North America, it's still a draw. That said, I can see that the consumer would potentially be better off if fees went down, prices dropped, and rewards went away. But that's probably not a realistic future.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#222
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got in this thread with the expectation of seeing a comment like yours, so thank you for that. I think what worries the U.S. more is the likelihood of Pix spreading around the world. It’s such a great public program that I believe many countries will eventually adopt it, or adopt some version of it. In fact, AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Consumers like it because it is widely availa…

India has UPI. China has something. It is only a good thing that this should spread everywhere.

[deleted]

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#223
post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

> The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, [...] In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards

No it hasn't. The right cap is 0, like in Brazil. It doesn't make any sense to have 0% payment fees on cash and 0.2% on cards. Cash is easier to fake.

It also doesn't make any sense to be a percentage. It takes the same number of bits to transport the number 10000 as it does to transport the number 10.

Even 0.2% is essentially just a privatized tax.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#224
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First things first — this is correct. As a matter of fact, the Brazillian Pix - which gets much more “eyeballs” on places like HN, are much newer than UPI and UPI was one of the inspirations, if I may say so, behind it; and it dwarves in scale. Not to mention UPI is designed to be decentralised (almost decentralised). Fair warning (pc, please know that I am not targeting you) about the URL pc has shared - it’s litera…

This is disgusting. Calling the biggest democratic party as authoritarian is nothing but disgusting. Why do you people think you and your opinions are better than majority?

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/in...

https://thediplomat.com/2025/04/modis-india-is-a-dangerous-p...

https://theprint.in/opinion/authoritarian-streak-among-india...

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/07/04/m...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00167...

This isn’t a fringe view or “disgusting”

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#225
post #147
post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

The EU (the ECB) is actively working towards a system similar to SEPA (Single Euro Payments Area) but for cards [0]. This would enable card transfers to also become faster (SEPA is instantaneous even cross-border within the EU) also allow for operations not depending on Visa or Mastercard. There is a major EU effort to develop an alternative 'instant payment' system that doesn't depend on Visa or Mastercard called We…

I had never heard of wero, despite living in Belgium and having been actively involved in fintech. Android also tells me that the app is not available in my country.

Sounds like it's supposed to replace Payconiq (which is currently the biggest mobile payment service in Belgium).

The fragmentation of payment services is starting to annoy me. I can use cash or cards everywhere in the eurozone with 100% compatibility. But every handful of banks in every country has decided to create their own payment "solution". Typically using Android & iOS apps that require an insane number of permissions (including location and wifi connections!?).

Looks like wero is just more of the same. Another non-standard that's only supported by a handful banks in a handful of countries. And I'll bet it won't work on rooted android devices, and that there won't be a web version.

At least it's built on top of SEPA Instant Payments, which is a step forward...

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#226
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bundling consumer protection with the payment system was always a bad idea. Payments need to be instantaneous and free. The returns/refunds can be handled offline by a mutually agreed facilitator that does not have a monopoly on the payment system. You can also have a legal mandate that all internet purchase, for example, should employ such a service, that charges a market fee and is then liable for making fair decis…

It is not a bad idea. This is how it is supposed to be. My bank offers this even with Mastercard. I have to approve transactions when paying online. It's instant, I finish checkout, and then I receive the push notification asking me to confirm the transaction. I don't know if I would ever use CC in a country where banks don't allow this.

That is authorising the transaction and it makes sense for the card issuer to handle that. It's proving that it's "you" using the card and you really intended to pay for that thing. Maybe they SMS 2FA you, maybe they have a biometric check, etc. All cool.

The case where you have a dispute with the merchant (i.e transaction is authorised but problem is 1 layer up - you feel that reality doesn't match up with the payment record!) is different. You paid as intended but the thing you wanted didn't happen. Right now things are bundled together.

Sometimes this is handled by marketplace (think amazon, vs paypal/ebay and their different balances of favouring merchant vs consumer) but overall (e.g. consider shopify who are basically uncontactable in case of merchant disputes) I don't think the whole payments system makes this very clear. In practice it is sort of a shifting balance between various parties.

There are actually big questions of who eats risk between consumer, platform, merchant and various payment processors for a given transaction and things are a bit obscured. In practice all the parties EXCEPT the consumer know what is really going on.

It could be made much more clear who has the responsibility for resolving merchant disputes and their records could be made public, and this could be a more explicit point of difference in payment / marketplace offerings.

I think lots of people would make different decisions about where and how they bought things if they could see statistics about how disputes are handled.

I am not arguing for any specific method of solving disputes or more government intervention in general, I just think that if things were more transparent (mandatory reporting) fewer people would feel ripped off, people could make more informed decisions, and marketplaces / processors who are adept at resolving disputes would be rewarded as they deserve. Basically, the market would work better.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Also Vietnam (Napas247), Singapore (PayNow), Philippines (QR Ph), Japan (lots different systems), China (WeChat/Alipay, I think?), Russia (SBP), Belarus (ERIP, in a sense), and the whole of EU (SEPA transfers). One problem is, most of them don’t really work for you if you’re a foreigner. Moreta (YC S24) is doing something in SEA, and I’ve seen another s…

The EU is also now pushing WERO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)

Isn't that (and its predecessor iDEAL) basically a layer on top of SEPA transfers though? (not that that's a bad thing)

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#228
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in Thailand. Fraud is a much smaller issue because it’s a push-based system. You cannot withdrawal from someone else’s account just by knowing the number, unlike with credit cards.

What about fighting charges? In the US, if I flag a charge on my credit card it's immediately cancelled and they deal with it. How does that work?

In the Netherlands, possibly more of Europe, you can do a chargeback ("storneren") on automated deductions, which can be used in the case of conflicts, e.g. a company withdrawing money from your account even though you cancelled a subscription.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#229
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada has something similar (Interac), but the transaction marketshare has been steadily eroding to credit cards. (Since credit cards offer credit + credit/cashback, and extra fees for paying by credit cards are very rare.)

Interac is a debit network in Canada, and the merchant fees are impressively low. They're generally under $0.10 as a flat fee, not a percentage (credit cards would cost the merchant around 2%). https://www.interac.ca/en/payments/business/understanding-fe... , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac One consequence of the flat fee is that at some retail stores, if you pay by debit, you can ask for "cash back". For examp…

Cash back was/is a thing in Sweden for a long time, but I have not actually seen it used in ages, or mentioned. We simply don't use cash much these days.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#230
post #49

Brazil central bank introduced Pix a few years ago. It took over the country as the public basic infrastructure for money transfer. Totally free and instantaneous transactions between people and companies, available to all banks. Then, just last week, the US presidency launched an investigation considering Pix an unfair trade practice against the US. Actions like that may show the current direction of the US governme…

I got in this thread with the expectation of seeing a comment like yours, so thank you for that. I think what worries the U.S. more is the likelihood of Pix spreading around the world. It’s such a great public program that I believe many countries will eventually adopt it, or adopt some version of it. In fact, AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Consumers like it because it is widely availa…

There is UPI too in India, pix also sounds decent! Pardon me but I think pix is open source too which is nice too !
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