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The United States withdraws from UNESCO

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Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me a long time to realize that most people don’t make any effort to understand politics beyond surface level headlines. A lot of people treat politics like they behave in the HN comment section: They see the headline, arrive at a conclusion based on previous assumptions, and head straight to the comment section to argue their side without ever even making an effort to read the article. With politics, politici…

The problem is that politics, particularly in the US, tends to push people into binary thinking. I certainly do not love the Trump admin and think Kamala would easily do better. However, that does not mean the Trump admin has done nothing I agree with. There are nice parts to the OBBB that directly benefit me. Further, I think the approach to H1Bs, removing the lottery and instead basing it on salary, is the right mo…

a more appropriate way of looking at this would be incentives. Who, in the government, stands to benefit from revising the H1B system? Even if you agree with the action, you may not not agree with the motivation.

Your line of thinking is like saying that the British Raj was terrible for India, but the British built railways, which was a good thing. Good and bad do not exist in isolation. The British built railways in india so they could more effectively extract wealth, not out of the benevolence of their hearts. It is much the same with the US government.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about this that bothers me the most (ok maybe not the most... but its troubling), we have gotten to a point that we are more free to criticize our own government than a foreign government (unless it is about this topic). Like, how that ever became OK is insane to me.

That's true, nobody's ever invented an entirely new word for when you criticize the U.S. government, but you start criticizing the Israeli government and all of a sudden you're "aNtIsEmItiC"... Nah, I just think that in the 21st century, people shouldn't invade a country, kill all their children, and steal all their land.

Right, that is the problem. That word (rightly so) carries a lot of weight.

But instead it has turned into a word that is used to try to shut down any criticism. Things get labeled as such, schools and others have a zero acceptance policy and here we are.

I have never seen a school having an "un-patriotic" policy. I would say even the opposite, they encourage getting involved in the government and making your voice heard.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#333

This administration has zero ability to build or bring people together, able only to destroy what others have made. On the bright side, it isn't effective until December 31, 2026 so there is plenty of time to chicken out.

Ironically the claim about corruption also applies to this admin. (See crypto scams for access to the president, and the Epstein files promises for well-known examples)

I do agree with them that there is a 'rot' in these institutes. Though I don't know anything specific about the UNESCO that would warrant the withdrawal.

For institutes like the UN and UNRWA it does ring true however. It is wild to see claims of genocide where there isn't one and zero claims or calls for arrest when clear unambiguous genocidal massacres start taking place. UNRWA funded and run schools having theater classes where the children role-play murdering Jews is absurd and shouldn't be happening. (To name an example from before the 7th)

The UN should be setting a singular standard and holding everyone to account roughly equally. Not this clear and open corruption of its proclaimed principles. Whether it's in the main body or it's subsidiaries.

The current media and political landscape is a joke, there don't seem to be any standards. Frankly the future looks rather bleak. I really hope we can find to way back to 'common sense'. Good journalism, holding politicians to account and treating everyone equally, holding them to the same standards.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#334
post #40

And it’s wild to think that more than 1/3 of the devs I’ve met in my life support this admin. These are seemingly smart people. The past 10 years or so made me realize I don’t know anything about human nature or intellect. Edit: I am in no way saying conservatism is bad and liberalism is good. I have my values in both.

It took me a long time to realize that most people don’t make any effort to understand politics beyond surface level headlines. A lot of people treat politics like they behave in the HN comment section: They see the headline, arrive at a conclusion based on previous assumptions, and head straight to the comment section to argue their side without ever even making an effort to read the article. With politics, politici…

A generous interpretation of this is that most of the time, people pay little attention to politics as they are busy with their daily lives : earning money, shopping for food, looking after their families, etc. Most people have neither the time or the inclination to even follow politics beyond the headlines, or think through the problems and their position.

This can be a problem when the political 'class' (politicians of course, but also media commentators, journalists, podcasters, whatever) do not realise this issue. Brexit is a classic example, where the UK prime minister called for a referendum possibly confident that 'no one' would actually vote yes.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#335
post #3

What are UNESCO's "divisive cultural and social causes"?

The announcement calls out two things, admission of Palestine as a member state and the Sustainable Development Goals.

The Goals are defined here: https://sdgs.un.org/goals

> Target 1.4: By 2030, ensure that all men and women, in particular the poor and the vulnerable, have equal rights to economic resources, as well as access to basic services, ownership and control over land and other forms of property, inheritance, natural resources, appropriate new technology, and financial services

> Indicator 1.4.2: Proportion of total adult population with secure tenure rights to land [...] [This goal seems to state that poor people should own just as much land as rich people. That's insane, but even ignoring that, the goal definitely states that renting is evil and everyone needs to own.]

> Target 1.b: Create sound policy frameworks at the national, regional and international levels, based on pro-poor and gender-sensitive development strategies, to support accelerated investment in poverty eradication actions

> Target 3.5: Strengthen the prevention and treatment of substance abuse, including narcotic drug abuse and harmful use of alcohol

> Indicator 3.5.1: Alcohol per capita consumption (aged 15 years and older) within a calendar year in litres of pure alcohol [In other words, the UN considers itself to be achieving this goal if people drink less alcohol than they used to. There is no indicator for problems caused by substance abuse.]

> Target 3.7: By 2030, ensure universal access to sexual and reproductive health-care services, including for family planning, information, and education, and the integration of reproductive health into national strategies and programmes

> Target 3.8: Achieve universal health coverage, including [...]

> Target 4.1: By 2030, ensure that all girls and boys complete free, equitable and quality primary and secondary education [...]

> Target 4.2: By 2030, ensure that all girls and boys have access to quality early childhood development, care and pre-primary education so that they are ready for primary education

> Target 4.5: By 2030, eliminate gender disparities in education and ensure equal access to all levels of education and vocational training for the vulnerable, including persons with disabilities, indigenous peoples and children in vulnerable situations

> Indicator 4.5.1: Parity indices (female/male, rural/urban, bottom/top wealth quintile and others such as disability status, indigenous peoples and conflict-affected, as data become available) for all education indicators on this list

> Target 4.7: By 2030, ensure that all learners acquire the knowledge and skills needed to promote sustainable development, including, among others, through education for sustainable development and sustainable lifestyles, human rights, gender equality, promotion of a culture of peace and non-violence, global citizenship and appreciation of cultural diversity and of culture's contribution to sustainable development

> Target 4.a: Build and upgrade education facilities that are child, disability and gender sensitive [...]

> Target 10.3: Ensure equal opportunity and reduce inequalities of outcome [...]

> Target 10.4: Adopt policies, especially fiscal, wage, and social protection policies, and progressively achieve greater equality

> Target 10.a: [we're still on the goal "reduce inequality"] Implement the principle of special and differential treatment for developing countries [...]

> Target 9.2: Promote inclusive and sustainable industrialization and, by 2030, significantly raise industry's share of employment and gross domestic product [If they really mean this, I'll admit that it swings the opposite way from what I would have expected. I have a suspicion that they don't want this to happen in developed countries. The indicators don't disambiguate. Either way it's a divisive cause.]

> Goal 13: Take urgent action to combat climate change

> Target 12.2: By 2030, achieve the sustainable management and efficient use of natural resources

> Indicator 12.2.1: Material footprint, material footprint per capita, and material footprint per GDP ["We want people to have less stuff."]

> Indicator 12.2.2: Domestic material consumption, domestic material consumption per capita, and domestic material consumption per GDP ["We want people to have less stuff."]

> Target 14.5: By 2020, conserve at least 10 per cent of coastal and marine areas

> Target 16.b: Promote and enforce non-discriminatory laws and policies for sustainable development

> Indicator 16.b.1: Proportion of population reporting having personally felt discriminated against or harassed in the previous 12 months

I wouldn't call this an ideologically neutral set of goals, no.

Target 16.1 seems fine, though I'm a little surprised they didn't use the "By 2030, end all [...]" phrasing.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#336
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The online space (Reddit, HN, others) is so deeply embedded with groupthink that people have lost the ability to see other points of view or debate topics of interest. To me it's very clear why the government is leaving UNESCO (and over time the UN at large). The UN is dysfunctional and does not work. It used to be a source of soft power for the States, but hasn't been so for the better part of this century. Meanwhil…

> when funds are scarce The US budget is ~$7T annually. There is $50B to spend deporting critical parts of our workforce. There is $1T in defense spending to ensure that we spend more than the next 9(!) militaries combined*. Et cetera. The US spends ~$18B supporting UN programs. This is ~0.003% of the federal budget. The point here is funds are not scarce, and in any case to the extent that one is concerned about spe…

The US ran a $1.8T deficit in 2024. That's objectively scarce funds. Even if the UN doesn't drive a significant portion of the spending, they do not serve the people that are going into debt to fund it.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#337
post #40

And it’s wild to think that more than 1/3 of the devs I’ve met in my life support this admin. These are seemingly smart people. The past 10 years or so made me realize I don’t know anything about human nature or intellect. Edit: I am in no way saying conservatism is bad and liberalism is good. I have my values in both.

The online space (Reddit, HN, others) is so deeply embedded with groupthink that people have lost the ability to see other points of view or debate topics of interest. To me it's very clear why the government is leaving UNESCO (and over time the UN at large). The UN is dysfunctional and does not work. It used to be a source of soft power for the States, but hasn't been so for the better part of this century. Meanwhil…

The UN was founded in the shadow of WWII to prevent further global conflicts. It also established a global standard for human rights and to provide a forum to uphold international law. It has also taken on roles to provide development and humanitarian assistance.

Whether the UN works or not is largely dependent upon whether the five powers that granted themselves veto power (the P5: the US, the UK, France, China, and Russia) allow it to work. They are largely the source of its funding.

With that context in mind, it's difficult to understand your perspective. You've only thrown out your opinion instead of facts, and then - in a preemptive defensive posture - claim any criticism will be insults or ad hominem attacks.

You seem to believe the UN's job is to advance the US's agenda. (No, it isn't. It's there to allow a forum for diplomacy for all nations.) You also seem to believe that the UN is a bad investment. (That's a highly subjective perspective: what are your stated metrics for such a judgement on ROI?)

If you believe that the world is a better place with regional hegemons ruling their parts of the world with power as the only metric that matters, I'd suggest building yourself a time machine and going back to the end of the 19th century.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is what happens when your neighbours wall you off because they don't want you in their countries… Ah, so now context matters. > keep training your children to hate them As do Israeli settlers. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli... "An Israeli organization calling itself The Civil Front has sparked controversy on social media by producing a song in which children fete the “destruction”…

> An Israeli organization calling itself The Civil Front has sparked controversy on social media by producing a song in which children fete the “destruction” in Gaza and say “nothing will be left there” in a year’s time." That sounds like extreme Israelis, or the average Palestinian. If this were normal, Palestine would just be bombed to dust > "How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza": https://w…

> If this were normal, Palestine would just be bombed to dust…

That process is well on its way to completion.

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/destruction-hom... "Over 15 months of all-out war on Gaza have left 92 percent of housing units and about 70 percent of all structures destroyed or damaged."

> Yes, that is bad. But that doesn't remove the other thing.

Certainly. Both are bad! Both should make you angry.

> I don't know…

Now you do! Less outraged? More skeptical?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron

It's squarely in the middle of the West Bank. The list is categorized by physical location; for similar reasons, https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/529 is Bolivian, not Catholic.

https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1565 says "a site of pilgrimage for the three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam".

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