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The United States withdraws from UNESCO

state.gov

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Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#281

Post by nerdjon »

hersko wrote: post #233
nerdjon wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about this that bothers me the most (ok maybe not the most... but its troubling), we have gotten to a point that we are more free to criticize our own government than a foreign government (unless it is about this topic). Like, how that ever became OK is insane to me.

Well this is obviously not true so i wouldn't worry about it too much....

Care to tell me how what I said is not true?

I can say and criticize a lot of crap about my government without worrying about being kicked out of school or anything like that. The most I may be called is "unpatriotic" but I think most people here (maybe at least until recently) recognized that that was one of our core freedoms.

The same is not true if I tried to criticize one foreign government in particular.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#283

Post by Workaccount2 »

manoDev wrote: post #135
Workaccount2 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That’s a very naive reading, pretending all that is happening is because of Twitter flame wars. It may appear so, because that’s how the actors involved use social media, but it’s not caused by it.

What caused it are the journalists that moved their work from on the ground reporting to on the twittersphere reporting. Rather than go out and see what people feel, they decided they could just sit at home and browse twitter as a stand-in replacement for public sentiment.

This gave an enormously disproportionate voice to the fringe groups that had long been deeply entrenched in the online space.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#284

Post by runako »

glitchc wrote: post #150
lvl155 wrote: post #40

And it’s wild to think that more than 1/3 of the devs I’ve met in my life support this admin. These are seemingly smart people. The past 10 years or so made me realize I don’t know anything about human nature or intellect. Edit: I am in no way saying conservatism is bad and liberalism is good. I have my values in both.

The online space (Reddit, HN, others) is so deeply embedded with groupthink that people have lost the ability to see other points of view or debate topics of interest. To me it's very clear why the government is leaving UNESCO (and over time the UN at large). The UN is dysfunctional and does not work. It used to be a source of soft power for the States, but hasn't been so for the better part of this century. Meanwhil…

> when funds are scarce

The US budget is ~$7T annually. There is $50B to spend deporting critical parts of our workforce. There is $1T in defense spending to ensure that we spend more than the next 9(!) militaries combined*. Et cetera.

The US spends ~$18B supporting UN programs. This is ~0.003% of the federal budget.

The point here is funds are not scarce, and in any case to the extent that one is concerned about spending, the UN spend is not the driver. The rest of your point is consistent, there's no need to use the red herring about lack of money.

* I'm old enough to remember the end of the Cold War. Americans were told that as the Soviet threat withdrew, we could expect a "peace dividend" now that we didn't need to spend so much on defense. Inflation-adjusted, we spend more now than at the peak of the Cold War.

Given the threat matrix today that includes fantasies such as "US land war against its third-largest trading partner" and the absurd "protracted war against a developing nation currently being fought to stalemate by a country smaller than California," I am not sure this increased spend makes sense. Seems like the only scenario that justifies our military spend is when a President decides to blow a wad of lives & cash in some utterly wasteful conflict.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#285

Post by wnevets »

lvl155 wrote: post #40

And it’s wild to think that more than 1/3 of the devs I’ve met in my life support this admin. These are seemingly smart people. The past 10 years or so made me realize I don’t know anything about human nature or intellect. Edit: I am in no way saying conservatism is bad and liberalism is good. I have my values in both.

> These are seemingly smart people. The past 10 years or so made me realize I don’t know anything about human nature or intellect.

just remember, there is nothing more easy to manipulate than an insecure male.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#286

Post by notahacker »

glitchc wrote: post #198
Loughla wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You took out the comment about people howling about change. Why? That seemed the central thesis of your statement. I would argue that it's not practical to burn the current system down without a plan at all for the next system (like the ACA a few years ago. . .) My concern isn't change. My concern is the complete lack of concern for consequences. Like it or not, the US is and has been on the decline in terms of world…

> Leaving a power vacuum, like dismantling the UN, will just open the door for places like China to step in. You think that country has any amount of give a crap about humanity as a whole? Not even a little, I would argue. If China wants to foot the bill, let them. As I pointed out, the US hasn't been getting anything in return for the last 25 years of footing the bill, basically since 9/11. China cares about its peo…

Would you really liken the recent US approach to international relations to a peloton? Seems rather more like the race leader stopping his bike, chucking it off a cliff whilst hurling insults at all the contestants a lap or two behind, including the teammates offering him an alternative bike

Thoughtful, conservative isolationists don't mix up their questions about how important soft power is really with threats to annexe Canada or attempts to get the Brazilian Supreme Court to drop a case through tariff policy. Or indeed rant incessantly about how much of a threat China is whilst doing everything possible to drive the rest of the world into their arms.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#287

Post by cooper_ganglia »

nerdjon wrote: post #219
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to sign a document saying you won't boycott Israel, academic journals cancel editions which talk about Palestine, you can't be part of UNESCO for Israel. You can't write a college article critical of Israel or we'll kidnap you off the streets into an unmarked van. You can't be a business and not give a contract to Israel or your employee will tip off the Anti Boycott Office against you. Your Congressmen wear…

The thing about this that bothers me the most (ok maybe not the most... but its troubling), we have gotten to a point that we are more free to criticize our own government than a foreign government (unless it is about this topic). Like, how that ever became OK is insane to me.

That's true, nobody's ever invented an entirely new word for when you criticize the U.S. government, but you start criticizing the Israeli government and all of a sudden you're "aNtIsEmItiC"...

Nah, I just think that in the 21st century, people shouldn't invade a country, kill all their children, and steal all their land.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#288

Post by hersko »

Jtsummers wrote: post #123
1234letshaveatw wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't this more of an example of employing soft power?

Successful soft power requires you have a seat at the table. When you leave and stop participating, you reduce your soft power.

Sure, but if you are the only one holding up (funding) the table then the whole thing falls apart when you leave.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#289

Post by orblivion »

glitchc wrote: post #150
lvl155 wrote: post #40

And it’s wild to think that more than 1/3 of the devs I’ve met in my life support this admin. These are seemingly smart people. The past 10 years or so made me realize I don’t know anything about human nature or intellect. Edit: I am in no way saying conservatism is bad and liberalism is good. I have my values in both.

The online space (Reddit, HN, others) is so deeply embedded with groupthink that people have lost the ability to see other points of view or debate topics of interest. To me it's very clear why the government is leaving UNESCO (and over time the UN at large). The UN is dysfunctional and does not work. It used to be a source of soft power for the States, but hasn't been so for the better part of this century. Meanwhil…

I used to say that HN was a place where very controversial opinions were respectfully discussed. Granted with some bias, but still a lot of tolerance for unpopular views. Even climate change skepticism or 2020 election skepticism. What got voted down was unwanted tone, essentially.

Now it seems that the current administration is too much for people here to handle. I wonder if the mods have noticed the same thing, or maybe they support it at this point.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#290

Post by pkilgore »

garamond23 wrote: post #194
skywhopper wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump was president in 2018, if you’ve forgotten.

> The United States cut funding for UNESCO under the Obama administration after it voted to include Palestine as a full member, and then pulled out completely during President Trump’s first term. >But in 2023, the Biden administration reversed that decision and decided to rejoin. - NYT - U.S. Says It Will Withdraw From U.N. Cultural Organization, Again To be fair it looks like funding was cut during the Obama admin o…

Congress cut funding by passing laws[1][2].

In 2011, Obama was just following the law enacted by Congress not his wild ass opinions, which I know is crazy given the current administration.

[1] Public Law 101-246 (1990)

[2] Public Law 103-236 (1994)

See also: https://web.archive.org/web/20141224180231/https://foreignpo...

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