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Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

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Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#31

Post by podgorniy »

HenryBemis wrote: post #5

I remember Steve Gibson saying some years back that the only reason USA doesn't (cyber-)'attack' Russia's train infra is the inability to 'hide the traces' of the attack, and it would be 'easily' attributed/mapped back to the USA causing (political) issues. Well, Ukraine doesn't have 'that' challenge. On the other hand (and I'm not defending a drone company), anyone that has a business should know by now that ransomw…

> I remember Steve Gibson saying some years back that the only reason USA doesn't (cyber-)'attack' Russia's train infra is the inability to 'hide the traces' of the attack

This is not a real reason. This explanation hides the real reason: Russia is a valuable geopolitical partner for USA. Regarless who are in power in USA - all presidents tried to make deals/contacts with Russia.

There is no value for USA in getting Russia loose this war, have internal instability or split in 20-ish national states.

USA wins more from russia being as it is today with all it blood, suffering and hundreds of thousands of deaths caused by the regime thrive for survival.

Actually USA are afraid to push too much to cause internal issues in Russia. And russian ruling class knows that.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#32

Post by [deleted] »

chii wrote: post #17
v5v3 wrote: post #4

>Ukrainian cyber activists, in cooperation with military intelligence... So the foreign intelligence services gave them a button push so it's not a direct cyber war on Russia.

> foreign intelligence services gave them a button push so it's not a direct cyber war on Russia meanwhile, russian intelligence services have already directly attacked nato countries, with barely any real deniability.

[deleted]

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#33

Post by _1tem »

WJW wrote: post #19
raverbashing wrote: post #9

While this is a move that will hinder production for a while I'd say maybe they should have been more creative They should have checked the source codes and added some changes to make drones unpredictably unreliable "Oh this totally innocent code change? Oh look it makes the gps act weird if longitude is between a certain range how weird"

When there's hundreds of drones raining down on your civilians every day, just disabling the production has a a higher priority than being cutesy with things that might work further away into the future.

In several cases during World War II, the Allies intentionally allowed German attacks to happen (or did not act to prevent them) to avoid revealing that they had cracked German codes, particularly the Enigma cipher.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#34

Post by v5v3 »

trhway wrote: post #27
taway1a2b3c wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point being made is that Western agencies (5-eyes) would give Ukranian intelligence the button to push (indirect action) and not push it themselves (direct action).

By going to war with Ukraine Russia (very foolishly in my view) exposed itself to a number of possible "indirect actions" which weren't possible before as "direct actions". Like for example Ukrainian drone hitting one of the Russian strategic missile defense radars. Ukraine can potentially hit other strategic assets not that involved in the current war - say nuclear submarines for example.

Russia and all non-usa allies have been the winner.

China etc have seen the strategies used in sanctions. They know how to limit their impact now.

It's also brought Russia/China/Iran/North Korea and wider Brics together.

It's been a disaster for the west. The measure of success was Russia weakened and ideally Putin weakened or gone. And instead Russia have shrugged off the sanctions, and Putin is much stronger.

And the Russian military has gained real battle tested knowledge.

A disaster for the west, aside from their weapons companies/Ukrainian investments. And any NATO spend increases.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#35

Post by timeon »

taway1a2b3c wrote: post #22
pyrale wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re talking about Ukraine and Russia, there has been a war going on for years now. Nobody needs or wants plausible deniability here.

I think the point being made is that Western agencies (5-eyes) would give Ukranian intelligence the button to push (indirect action) and not push it themselves (direct action).

Sure, it is always omnipotent Western agencies... while some Western governments are halting support in critical moments - which has bigger impact on the war.

I think Ukrainians (and Russians as well) aren't tech illiterate. They are (both) more than capable in this matter.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#36

Post by perlgeek »

lnsru wrote: post #2

Working for a company in Germany which is planing production 3 months in advance using printed Excel sheets. The migration of ERP system gone wrong and nobody knows how to fix it. Production management tries to hide this fact and does not talk to the engineering department. This will go for years, consultants will gather their fees for non functional system. Obviously IT infrastructure is not needed for manufacturing…

On the other hand, once you have a well-established IT automation around your production, and people aren't trained in pre-automation production, it's actually quite hard to go back to manual.

Probably also depends on the complexity of the orders and workflows.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#37

Post by timeon »

v5v3 wrote: post #34
trhway wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By going to war with Ukraine Russia (very foolishly in my view) exposed itself to a number of possible "indirect actions" which weren't possible before as "direct actions". Like for example Ukrainian drone hitting one of the Russian strategic missile defense radars. Ukraine can potentially hit other strategic assets not that involved in the current war - say nuclear submarines for example.

Russia and all non-usa allies have been the winner. China etc have seen the strategies used in sanctions. They know how to limit their impact now. It's also brought Russia/China/Iran/North Korea and wider Brics together. It's been a disaster for the west. The measure of success was Russia weakened and ideally Putin weakened or gone. And instead Russia have shrugged off the sanctions, and Putin is much stronger. And t…

Hardly anyone is 'winner' here.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#38

Post by perlgeek »

HenryBemis wrote: post #5

I remember Steve Gibson saying some years back that the only reason USA doesn't (cyber-)'attack' Russia's train infra is the inability to 'hide the traces' of the attack, and it would be 'easily' attributed/mapped back to the USA causing (political) issues. Well, Ukraine doesn't have 'that' challenge. On the other hand (and I'm not defending a drone company), anyone that has a business should know by now that ransomw…

I guess another reason is that there isn't too much IT infrastructure that Russian trains depend on.

There are ticket sales systems for people being transported, but much is freight trains, and if there was an easy way to disrupt that, you can be sure that Ukraine would've done it by now, because the Russian military heavily depends on rail-based supplies.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#39

Post by vardump »

v5v3 wrote: post #34
trhway wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By going to war with Ukraine Russia (very foolishly in my view) exposed itself to a number of possible "indirect actions" which weren't possible before as "direct actions". Like for example Ukrainian drone hitting one of the Russian strategic missile defense radars. Ukraine can potentially hit other strategic assets not that involved in the current war - say nuclear submarines for example.

Russia and all non-usa allies have been the winner. China etc have seen the strategies used in sanctions. They know how to limit their impact now. It's also brought Russia/China/Iran/North Korea and wider Brics together. It's been a disaster for the west. The measure of success was Russia weakened and ideally Putin weakened or gone. And instead Russia have shrugged off the sanctions, and Putin is much stronger. And t…

China has been a big winner, it can now get cheap energy and it gets to set Russia whatever conditions it pleases. Russia is now utterly dependent on China for many imports.

Russia itself has been the biggest loser. Massive budget deficits, massive inflation. 1M of its smartest people have moved abroad. 1M Russian casualties in the war. Demographics and economy are disastrous.

That and Russia is now a pariah state. No one is going to invest there for a very long time after what Russia did.

Re: Ukrainian hackers destroyed the IT infrastructure of Russian drone manufacturer

#40

Post by biblioteca »

HPsquared wrote: post #3
lnsru wrote: post #2

Working for a company in Germany which is planing production 3 months in advance using printed Excel sheets. The migration of ERP system gone wrong and nobody knows how to fix it. Production management tries to hide this fact and does not talk to the engineering department. This will go for years, consultants will gather their fees for non functional system. Obviously IT infrastructure is not needed for manufacturing…

It depends how resilient they are. People often put all their eggs in one basket.

No, they’re right, manufacturing machines like these are independent. We’re so used to interconnected software systems for everything, but even though these things may run old versions of Windows in airgapped or isolated networks, that’s just to run the machines. You give it a thumbdrive, save a part file on it, and as long as it’s got power, materials, and whatever is necessary for basic safety like noble gas for sintering safety, you’re set.

Even accounting systems are able to usually run fairly independently.

It’s not that IT and business and manufacturing support software engineers don’t help, but they aren’t necessary, especially if they’re just making the same thing over and over.

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