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Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

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Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a great documentary on Magic Leap! https://www.generalmagicthemovie.com

That is a great documentary, but it's about General Magic, not Magic Leap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Leap

Here's the real story behind "Magic Creep":

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28838332

Not to be confused with General Magic, which wasn't a money grubbing fraud from day one, which didn't put on the most ridiculous obnoxious unenlightening cocaine addled TedX talk in the history of the universe, which didn't post fraudulent obviously impossibly fake demos to youtube falsely claiming "Just another day in the office at Magic Leap", which didn't have a toxic nepotistic bro culture that excluded and belittled women, that didn't settle a huge lawsuit for sex discrimination against the one woman they hired to fix the "pink/blue problem" but then rebuffed and ignored, that didn't burn through billions of investment dollars producing nothing of value, which didn't blatantly rip off many people's original ideas in their unoriginal invalid fraudulent patent applications, which didn't publish an astounding but physically impossible video of a whale leaping out the gym floor and splashing down while hundreds of children not wearing AR headsets were somehow magically able to perceive it and clap and cheer and say "WOOOAAAHH!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J5BWL8oJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbpqwUUfMAQ

https://x.com/fernandojsg/status/1017411969169555457

Magic Leap gave magic a bad name (and was the biggest disgrace of the entire AR industry, even spectacularly worse than a certain Google Glasshole publishing a nude selfie of himself in the shower), while General Magic truly was the good kind of magic.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725347

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#242

What if "dissolving the ego" is bad though?

Thousands of years of Buddhist practice says it isn't

Thousands of years of Buddhist practice and the enlightened teachers are still getting in sex scandals. As someone who spent years in that world, I never met anyone who seemed genuinely helped by the practice

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#243
I’ve taken a lot of psychedelic drugs. I wouldn’t recommend them. I don’t think they are at all helpful nor necessary for a fulfilling and open life. They may have some uses for addiction treatment in clinical settings. I definitely don’t think it’s someone that everyone has to experience. Sober life is best

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#244
post #85

Off-topic, but I have to... (From the photo caption) "Bill ... with his iphone prototype" Nope. That's a Sony Magic Link, built by Bill (and others, myself included) during his time at General Magic. I feel General Magic is another one of Bill's endeavors that isn't widely understood or appreciated.

Who are you sir? I am a big fan of the general magicians

I was googling for my friend Josh Siegel who used to work at General Magic, and found this cool org chart!

http://www.datarover.com/SEKRIT/general-magic-org-chart-1994...

Josh Siegel worked in Magic Cap Core Technology with Bill Atkinson and Andy Hertzfeld (both "on loan"). At Sun he rewrote the PostScript interpreter in X11/NeWS from James Gosling's original messy design, and we worked on an X11 window manager written in PostScript. And at Los Alamos National Labs he wrote MMPORG simulations of World War III for the Joint Chiefs of Staff with a beautiful interactive NeWS front-end. (Sun was lucky to steal him away from LANL to work on NeWS instead of WWIII.)

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/owm.ps.txt

https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/unix-haters/x-window...

Don Woods worked in Communicating Applications. He and Will Crowther created Colossal Cave Adventure, and we worked on TNT (The NeWS Toolkit) together. His workstation was named "colossal" and when you logged in, its /etc/motd said "Welcome to Adventure!! Would you like instructions?" to the peril of anyone who typed "yes" to the csh prompt. Don wrote the "Spider" card game in PostScript for NeWS, after having previously implemented it at SAIL (Stanford AI Lab) and for XDE (at Xerox PARC).

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/news-tape/fun/spider/spi...

http://www.icynic.com/~don/

After having worked on NeWS (the network extensible PostScript window system) and written a lot of PostScript code at Sun, Telescript was obviously the right approach. Today the same approach is called "AJAX".

I wonder what "SEKRET" means? ;)

http://www.datarover.com/SEKRIT

Must have something to do with Magic Cap for Windows '95, which may be the killer app of e-mail...

http://www.datarover.com/

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike the idea of potential life threatening toxicity, the constant vomiting, the feeling like shit for days. Ayahuasca trips seem to be like edging with poison. But maybe the documentary I saw was biased.

With pharmahuasca or ayahuasca analogues maybe. With a normal/traditional brew it's essentially impossible to overdose (think like 3-4 liters of the stuff). Analogues like syrian rue are a lot easier to overdose though, it's a pretty small amount of material needed. Also the vast majority of people are done purging within a few hours...not "days" (Source: work at retreat center and have drank hundreds of times)

You seem to know, what you are doing. Is the retreat center where you work located in europe?

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#246
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a similar "Boy Scout" of sorts, the fear is/was real. I didn’t experiment with so much as nicotine or alcohol until I’d tried “stuff” with the supervision of an experienced "sitter"; I ended up having some of the best times of my life in the safety and context of home and friendships. Combined with my own life experiences with drug abuse and addictions, I was able to build a healthy relationship with those substan…

> I ended up having some of the best times of my life in the safety and context of home and friendships. > However, my personal moral compass prevents me from using substances outside of a legally permissible setting, at least at present - and that's something I'm fine with. What on Earth do laws have to do with morals?

Laws encode a kind of social reasoning (the balancing of risk, ethics, societal impacts, etc) and choosing to follow the law in most situations can be a moral stance (a matter of principle).

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there that much of a social taboo? Maybe it's just the people I hang out with and work with, but most people are open to psychedelic use and a lot have at least tried some.

Yes, it’s your bubble. There are American states still charging people over marijuana. Having grown up Christian I personally know people in their 30s who view psychedelic and heroin users similarly. Those people would have the opposite view of you. Years back, my friend’s parents asked me to stage an intervention for him after they found out he regularly took LSD. He was 19 at the time.

Eh, I’m pretty open-minded to this stuff, but I would also want to stage an intervention if my 19-year-old was regularly taking LSD.

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a great documentary, but it's about General Magic, not Magic Leap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Leap

Here's the real story behind "Magic Creep": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28838332 Not to be confused with General Magic, which wasn't a money grubbing fraud from day one, which didn't put on the most ridiculous obnoxious unenlightening cocaine addled TedX talk in the history of the universe, which didn't post fraudulent obviously impossibly fake demos to youtube falsely claiming "Just another day in the offic…

Oh my gosh, Don, you are giving me nightmares.

But what do you mean about the whale? I know they hypnotized the kids with some Magic, but the whale really did Leap out of the gym floor. That's where they got the company name! I saw it with my own eyes, in that YouTube video.

And don't expect me to believe that Rony Abovitz is not a real astronaut, and those were not real apes, and that was not a real space fudge monolith. I can taste right now, in my virtual mind!

About the shower glass guy... I knew him when he was a camera salesman at LZ Premiums in San Jose. I used to go there when I lived nearby, just to eye the merchandise and compare prices.

Eventually I bought something there - a huge Manfrotto tripod with a fluid head. I can still see the smile on Robert's face when he brought it out: "this guy finally bought something!"

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sheer existence of established and (partially) self-reinforcing sets of cultural standards doesn't strike me as a good basis to explore the fundamental complement of it all, or to describe it altogether as something assuredly misleading and "bad". This should be especially apparent if you've ever tried creating something that is self-justifying (it's usually a hard, valuable, and sought after effort). Put differe…

I'm not sure where you got "malicious cabal" from. Cultural values are the water in which fish swim. They look normal, obvious, trivially true, or just the way things "are". No one is secretly directing cultural truths while believing they are lies. Cultural truths are self-perpetuating ie: socially reproduced. It's actually quite the opposite. True-believers overwhelmingly disseminate cultural myths. It's the police…

> I'm not sure where you got "malicious cabal" from.

You didn't literally write that of course. Instead, you said these:

- "the proponents of "Big Reality" really really really fight against its disruption"

- "the post-Enlightenment project of "rational" adulthood"

- "Western civilization has a deep myth"

- "[list of values] must either be accepted (...) or face rejection"

- "western civilization values (...) [list of values] in a self-justifying way"

- etc.

All of them painting "Big Reality" as a group that:

- exists

- is just following myths

- unjustly represses the exploration of alternatives

- is western for some reason?

I hope we can agree that this is not a positive or even a neutral characterization, and that it suggests coordination. Hence, malicious cabal.

> It's present in engineers

I mean yeah, hi. Every time I'm able to work with something tangible, something measurable, it's always an intrinsically better experience, both on a personal level as well as socially. And every time I run into the opposite, the end result is confusion and misery. To paint this as just cultural doesn't feel even remotely right. Especially since I really don't see culture having come first, or since there are neurodivergent people who have a particular fascination with exactly these concepts (counting, hard logic, etc), suggesting the existence of biological biases and drivers towards these.

> Even here, it's easy to gain karma dunking on the liberal arts, all because science is assumed more value

Art is incredibly technical, actually, especially the better stuff. And when you engage that technical side, you get incredible richness in return, much more levers you can push on with much more intentionality. These wouldn't be recognized things if people didn't try to see a "method to the madness" and instead just kept on going by vibes.

I cannot know what threads you've been visiting that gave you this impression, and I'm sure that there are people here who do what you describe. But as far as my anecdotal experience goes, I cannot confirm having experienced this (people taking cheapshots at liberal arts here) by the way.

> When psychedelics make that myth visible

But you don't need psychedelics to appreciate that the vast majority of the things we experience and reason about have an excessive serving of manmade components. Even something trivial as chairs or names are just artificial constructs. What this requires is a philosophically intrigued mind, not necessarily a drug-addled one. If your idea is more that "okay, but these are more tangible and readily apparent while on drugs", sure, maybe that's true. That's really not the position you've been portraying though - but that this is some exclusive perspective, that only arises when you let your mind magically throw everything else away temporarily via chemical means.

> the reaction isn't to consider the critique, but to defend the myth as "reality."

Doesn't help if you set up the rhetorical framework that way... Mind you, every belief is like this. It's not just those inherited from culture.

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#250

Related: Hypercard was inspired by an LSD trip which Bill explains in an interview ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdJKjBHCh18 )

Related: Hypercard '200 Points of Light' demonstration (concept from 1990): https://youtu.be/H5-T_S50Sr4

I finally located a video with a live demonstration of Chuck Farnham's HyperCard Smut Stack, from the auspicious journalistic production "Geraldo: Sex in the 90's. From Computer Porn to Fax Foxes"!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42571845

DonHopkins 6 months ago | parent | context | favorite | on: ASCII porn predates the Internet but it's still ev...

Then you would have loved the HyperCard Smut Stack, the first commercial HyperCard stack ever released! I've begged Chuck to dig around to see if he has an old copy of the floppy lying around and upload it, but so far I don't know of a copy online you can run. Its bold pioneering balance of art and slease deserves preservation, and the story behind it is hilarious.

Edit: OMG I've just found the Geraldo episode with Chuck online, auspiciously titled "Geraldo: Sex in the 90's. From Computer Porn to Fax Foxes", which shows an example of Smut Stack (demo starts at 2:00 but worth watching the whole thing just for Chuck's continuous smirk):

https://visual-icon.com/lionsgate/detail/?id=67563&t=ts

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22285675

DonHopkins on Feb 10, 2020 | parent | context | favorite | on: HyperCard: What Could Have Been (2002)

Do you have the first commercial HyperCard stack ever released: the HyperCard SmutStack? Or SmutStack II, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, both by Chuck Farnham?

SmutStack was the first commercial HyperCard product available at rollout, released two weeks before HyperCard went public at a MacWorld Expo, cost $15, and made a lot of money (according to Chuck). SmutStack 2, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, had every type of sexual adventure you could imagine in it, including information about gays, lesbians, transgendered, HIV, safer sex, etc. Chuck was also the marketing guy for Mac Playmate, which got him on Geraldo, and sued by Playboy.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/could-the-ios-app-be-the-21st-...

>Smut Stack. One of the first commercial stacks available at the launch of HyperCard was Smut Stack, a hilarious collection (if you were in sixth grade) of somewhat naughty images that would make joke, present a popup image, or a fart sound when the viewer clicked on them. The author was Chuck Farnham of Chuck's Weird World fame.

>How did he do it? After all, HyperCard was a major secret down at Cupertino, even at that time before the wall of silence went up around Apple.

>It seems that Farnham was walking around the San Jose flea market in the spring of 1987 and spotted a couple of used Macs for sale. He was told that they were broken. Carting them home, he got them running and discovered several early builds of HyperCard as well as its programming environment. Fooling around with the program, he was able to build the Smut Stack, which sold out at the Boston Macworld Expo, being one of the only commercial stacks available at the show.

https://archive.org/stream/MacWorld_9008_August_1990/MacWorl...

Page 69 of https://archive.org/stream/MacWorld_9008_August_1990

>Famham's Choice

>This staunch defender was none other than Chuck Farnham, whom readers of this column will remember as the self-appointed gadfly known for rooting around in Apple’s trash cans. One of Farnham ’s myriad enterprises is Digital Deviations, whose products include the infamous SmutStack, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, and the multiple-disk set Sounds of Susan. The last comes in two versions: a $15 disk of generic sex noises and, for $10 more, a personalized version in which the talented Susan moans and groans using your name. I am not making this up.

>Farnham is frank about his participation in the Macintosh smut trade. “The problem with porno is generic,” he says, sounding for the briefest moment like Oliver Wendell Holmes. “When you do it, you have to make a commitment ... say you did it and say it’s yours. Most people would not stand up in front of God and country and say, ‘It’s mine.’ I don’t mind being called Mr. Scum Bag.”

>On the other hand, he admits cheerily, “There’s a huge market for sex stuff.” This despite the lack of true eroticism. “It’s a novelty,” says Farnham. Sort of the software equivalent of those ballpoint pens with the picture of a woman with a disappearing bikini.

https://archive.org/stream/NewComputerExpress110/NewComputer... [taken down]

Page 18 of https://archive.org/stream/NewComputerExpress110 [taken down]

>“Chuck developed the first commercial stack, the Smutstack, which was released two weeks before HyperCard went public at a MacWorld Expo. He’s embarrassed how much money a silly collection of sounds, cartoons, and scans of naked women brought in. His later version, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, was also a hit.

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