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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#341

Post by lanfeust6 »

wat10000 wrote: post #280
lanfeust6 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except colloquially no one today thinks the word has any bearing on whether the victim looks bad. It just means they're responsible for the act. I guess some people take comfort in the idea that suicide is thrust on people and they take no responsibility for their actions.

Healthy, sane people in good situations don't kill themselves. It follows from that fact that if someone kills themselves, at least one of those things was not true. And those things can and often are thrust on people, or at least occur against the will of the person. In this case, a bad situation was thrust on a whole bunch of people, and it ended up killing some of them.

> Healthy, sane people in good situations don't kill themselves.

Correct. This has no bearing.

> it ended up killing some of them.

No, and it's irresponsible and unhelpful to act like agency and choice is not part of the equation. As if to say that basically everyone chooses the same way (euthanasia) in the face of terminal illness, or depression.

Tautologically, if you want to convey that help is out there and that a better life is possible, then you're saying people have a choice to make.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#342

Post by LiquidSky »

njovin wrote: post #292
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

So the PO creates a franchise program that they later decide isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor, and instead of revising the terms of the franchise program to make it so, they assume that the participants are criminals and prosecute them?

> isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor

I think this is the parent’s point: this is the POV of the rich and powerful who lead the organization. They can’t imagine someone in a different position seeing these franchises as a way to secure good (or at least decent), long-term, stable employment.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#343

Post by aenis »

belter wrote: post #181
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

It's a surprising take to blame developers and software development for what is a prime example of corruption within the UK establishment, an uncaring and incompetent court system, and the lying senior managers of the UK Post Office. The faults were known and this is a case of cover-up. Software development was merely an accessory to the crime in this case.

Read the book, if you havent already. The senior technical staff was actively obfuscating and lying. Developers knew the system had synchronization issues, operations knew as well, as they were apparently routinely doing manual data fixes in production. Senior engineering staff are the most to blame. They messed up and then covered up. The fact that their management covered up some more can be partially excused by technical illiteracy.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#344

Post by arp242 »

akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

> What about Fujitsu? Why can't the government make Fujitsu pay for the destruction caused by their shitty software?

Because the software didn't cause it.

Look, by all accounts the software was/is a piece of piss, but what made it such an egregious scandal is how the Post Office leadership dealt with things. There was really no good reason for that to happen. They just ignored reports of problems (proper reports written by auditors, not vague rumours). They lied to postmasters by saying that no one has problems (when, in fact, there were hundreds of people). Lots has been written about all of this and I won't repeat it all here.

So I must object to the phrasing of "caused by their shitty software". Of course lots can be said about the failings of the software itself and Fujitsu also lied and covered their tracks so they are not entirely blameless. But they emphatically did not "cause" any of this: it was the Post Office leadership who primarily caused this mess.

Lots of things go wrong in the world, lots of things are defective. What often matters the most is not so much the mistake or defect itself, but what the response to that is.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#345

Post by lanfeust6 »

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #103
lanfeust6 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"damaging", in no quantifiable way whatsoever. It's just the euphemism treadmill at work, nothing more.

I would say it's not the treadmill at work in this case. It's not simply a replacement. The article linked by the parent comment explains it well and references plenty of considered material. But the tldr is that committing suicide aligns with an active criminal/immoral act, while dying by suicide is a factual cause of death with many possible causes. Consider how people would like your death, or the death of a loved…

> But the tldr is that committing suicide aligns with an active criminal/immoral act, while dying by suicide is a factual cause of death with many possible causes.

The projections are doing the work here. Colloquially today what's understood is that "commit" merely means they did the deed. People can judge that to be immoral or not regardless; most people don't, except through the lens of religion.

They might judge it to be the wrong choice, as I surely do, and I don't think it helps to diminish agency as though suicide is an inevitability following any given circumstance.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#346

Post by nickelpro »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #306
nickelpro wrote: post #240

The bug is hardly the problem here, it is necessary but far from sufficient for something like this to happen. The UK legal system's ability to prosecute and penalize people without anything more than circumstantial evidence makes it unfit for purpose. It should be an embarrassment to a country that considers itself a member of the developed Western world.

>The UK legal system's ability to prosecute and penalize people without anything more than circumstantial evidence makes it unfit for purpose. This defect is present in all justice systems to some degree or another. For that matter, most crimes (serious or otherwise) rarely have the sort of smoking gun evidence that would satisfy us all that it wasn't circumstantial. Worse still, when the evidence isn't circumstantia…

I recommend you read the report. The charges were brought solely on the claimed accounting shortfalls with no further evidence that the postmasters and sub-postmasters did anything wrong, not even an attempt to discover where the money had gone or anything resembling forensic accounting that would be required in similar US cases.

In the most shocking case, with Martin Griffiths, there were attempts to hold him responsible for robbery loses he had absolutely nothing to do with:

> On 2 May 2013 a robbery occurred at the Post Office which resulted in a net loss to the Post Office of £38,504.96, which was reduced to £15,845 after some of the money was recovered. Mr Griffiths was injured during the robbery; he was present in the branch when it occurred. The Post Office Investigator advised the Post Office that Mr Griffiths was partly to blame for the loss sustained by the Post Office and that he should be held responsible for part of the loss. [1]

Such a claim wouldn't even be colorable in most jurisdictions.

I disagree that anything similar could happen at this scale in the US or France. Individual cases might not be handled perfectly, but this is a systemic miscarriage of justice where at every turn individuals were prosecuted without any evidence of individual wrongdoing. It was believed money was missing, no attempt was made to discover how it went missing, and the post-masters were held responsible without further inquiry. The legal system upheld these non-findings as facts and convicted people based upon them.

[1]: Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry, 3.49

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#347

Post by carstout »

cameronh90 wrote: post #131
tialaramex wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So long as the jury understands this, it's all fine. If you're on trial for doing X and your jury is told by a prosecution witness "mrkramer did X" and under cross they admit that's based on computer records which are often bogus, inconsistent, total nonsense, it doesn't take the world's best defence lawyer to secure an "innocent" verdict. That's not a fun experience, but it probably won't drive you to suicide. One o…

> Asda can't prosecute me. They can, actually. Anyone in the UK can launch a private prosecution. It's rare because it's expensive and the CPS can (and often do) take over any private prosecution then drop it. Nevertheless, the power exists and has been intentionally protected by parliament. I think most would agree it needs reform, however.

Unfortunately the "its rare" isnt true. it is more common now than it was back in the horizon days. It also isnt necessarily expensive since you can apply for costs with the default being for it to be paid (unless good reason not to). As such whilst its not an option for the average person who cant afford the upfront cost it is very practical for large businesses especially if they engage in it often and hence can stand up a department for it.

Its one of the offerings from TM-Eye aka one of the "private police forces". https://tm-eye.co.uk/what-we-do/private-prosecutions/

It is an actual example of a two tier justice system since those who can afford the private prosecution skip the queue for the public system but will still normally have the taxpayer pay for it.

There is currently a consultation underway as per below article which, incidentally, mentions a more recent dubious example of private prosecutions which got slapped down.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/oversight-and-re...

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#348

Post by Vegenoid »

mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

> Some glitches were of their time and wouldn't occur these days, e.g. malfunctions in resistive touch screens that caused random clicks on POS screens to occur overnight

I think there’s still a lesson to be learned here about computers needing to be locked when not in use. I find it utterly bizarre how many experienced technical employees will leave their computer unlocked when they step away from it for extended periods of time.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#349

Post by lanfeust6 »

xbryanx wrote: post #248
lanfeust6 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"damaging", in no quantifiable way whatsoever. It's just the euphemism treadmill at work, nothing more.

> in no quantifiable way whatsoever You may disagree with my assertion, but there has been considerable research into the role of media and reporting in suicide, indicating that contagion is real and that words matter when reporting on these issues. Source: https://reportingonsuicide.org/research/

That words matter is why I'm in opposition, as this diminishes agency in people.

Today I would say that framing suicide as "immoral" in secular society is banal and has no traction, but most, excepting certain circumstances, would suggest it is a bad choice. That surely follows if you as well as I would try to talk an able person out of suicide.

I don't think it helps to diminish agency as though suicide is an inevitability following tough circumstances. That's the message I am getting from the euphemism treadmill game, and I reject it.

The message should be that you can go through hell and recover, and you still have a choice. And granted there's always nature vs nurture; just as we are not entirely the product of our environment, the environment does shape us. But it's not all-or-nothing.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#350

Post by foldr »

blipvert wrote: post #326
cedws wrote: post #34

The failing is as much with the court as it is with Fujitsu. Why did they blindly accept Horizon’s data as evidence? What if the computer said the Queen stole all the money and ran off to Barbados, would they have thrown her in jail? Why was the output of a black box, which may as well have been a notebook Fujitsu could have written anything they wanted into, treated as gospel?

Part of the answer is that the Post Office had (has?) special legal status in that it can prosecute cases by itself - no need to present a convincing case to the CPS like the police do. Many people were scared into pleading guilty just to avoid the upfront legal costs and the ruinous fines if contesting and found guilty (“the computer is always right”). Often the PO knew that they didn’t have much of a case but just…

This is a myth as far as I’ve been able to determine. The prosecutions were ordinary private prosecutions. The Post Office didn’t need any kind of special legal status in order to prosecute.
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