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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#261

Post by Jooror »

jen20 wrote: post #211
PaulRobinson wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you keep an eye on what's being published in Private Eye and Computer Weekly if you have access to those where you are. They're holding feet to the fire on all these points. One thing I would say is that if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed. The problem is that in this case the Post Office had unique legal powers, and was being r…

> They are assumed correct in UK courts. IT systems were legally considered infallible This will change when elected officials start getting hoisted by their own electronic petards. The Venn diagram of midwit enterprise developers who build systems with audit trails yet could not swear under penalty of perjury that the audit trail is absolutely correct in every case is almost a circle.

Show me a system for which you believe the audit trail is absolutely correct in every case and I’ll show you a midwit…

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#262

Post by BobaFloutist »

whycome wrote: post #170
noisy_boy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary That is just mind bogglingly stupid - who the hell are the idiots who wrote a law like that? Any of them wrote a line of code in their life?

Isn’t it a similar case in the USA where intoxication breath test computers are similarly obscured from scrutiny? People have argued that they have a right to “face their accuser” and see the source code only to have that request denied. So, black box.

Breathalyzers aren't typically considered sufficient evidence in of themselves to convict (or exonerate), iirc many PDs have a policy of treating a breathalyzer hit as probable cause more than anything and then either they throw you in the drunk tank if you don't demand a blood test to verify, or, if they want to actually prosecute you, they get a warrant for a blood test.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#263

Post by OskarS »

jordanb wrote: post #245
XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

1) The franchise actually does represent a decent amount of stability and financial security for the franchisee. Well-run locations typically could clear a modest profit for the owner. These were not money losing franchises for the most part (until the prosecutions started of course). 2) The post offices were geographically distributed pretty evenly throughout the UK so there were positions in far-flung locations wel…

I bet number 3 on your list there is super-appealing to many people. It sounds lovely to be the kind of person in a smaller community that everyone knows and says hi to, that helps you out with paying your bills or whatever it is. I’m guessing you’re also often the closest contact to the state in a smaller village, so there’s probably all sorts of applications and permits you’re asked to help out with.

Especially if you’re on the older side, it sounds like an absolutely wonderful way to spend your time. Assuming the post office doesn’t try to ruin your life afterwards.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#264

Post by wat10000 »

s_dev wrote: post #178
akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

>2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?" They genuinely thought that the new software was uncovering a lot of theft that previously went undetected. This actually spurred them…

Rationalization is a powerful force. People rarely come to objective beliefs based on evidence. They come to beliefs and then search for evidence. In law enforcement, people tend to decide on a suspect and then look for proof. Hence why you so often see prosecutors and police fighting to punish innocent people, sometimes even after they've been proven to be innocent.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#265

Post by sitkack »

barbazoo wrote: post #253
sitkack wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, if you are designing software to kill people, that you actually do a good job. https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/cia-allegedly-bought-flawe...

OT but what a shit site that is. A third of the page is taken up by a “best prime day deals” countdown banner. What a consumerist piece of shit website.

You need adblock

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#266

Post by SoftTalker »

whycome wrote: post #170
noisy_boy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary That is just mind bogglingly stupid - who the hell are the idiots who wrote a law like that? Any of them wrote a line of code in their life?

Isn’t it a similar case in the USA where intoxication breath test computers are similarly obscured from scrutiny? People have argued that they have a right to “face their accuser” and see the source code only to have that request denied. So, black box.

AIUI breath test only establishes probable cause. If you fail a breath test you are taken for a blood draw.

Breath test results are routinely challenged (sometimes successfully) by demanding records showing that the device has been tested and calibrated according to the required schedule.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#267

Post by dylan604 »

jordanb wrote: post #223
jen20 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect there's more to it in than that. I'd wager there was a solid amount of general incompetence involved at the PO "corporate" - management politically couldn't admit that their consultingware could be anything other than perfect, because they signed off on the decision to buy it, and probably on all the work orders that got them to that point. If anyone from PO management or that of the consulting firm (Fujits…

Yes at some point it turned into CYA. When the leadership started realizing that there were problems with the software they started doubling down, getting even more aggressive with prosecutions, because they were trying to hide their own fuckups. But when the ball started rolling, as the software rolled out and was finding missing funds everywhere, you'd think a normal person would have asked "are we sure there are n…

> That was never done, I believe, because the software was matching the leadership's priors.

That has to be the most egregious confirmation bias I've heard about.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#268

Post by shkkmo »

jordanb wrote: post #250
ionwake wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.

I don't mean to let the leadership off the hook. What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands. There were two phases though: the initial rollout, and sometime later the coverup. If they had asked very reasonable questions about the software during the rollout there would have been no need for a coverup. No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post…

> No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post offices had missing funds and if they were sure if it was real or not.

It would be reasonable, but that also assumes the ass-covering started post rollout rather than pre rollout.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#269

Post by LightBug1 »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Interesting insight. Thanks.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#270

Post by arrowsmith »

helloguillecl wrote: post #241
arrowsmith wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed. Is this not the case in other countries?

In Germany, calling someone by a crime they have been sentenced of, constitutes defamation.

What? That makes no sense whatsoever.
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