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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#201

Post by johnnyApplePRNG »

dagmx wrote: post #182
akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.

Politicians love the tabloids. They distract from the real goings-on.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#202

Post by arrowsmith »

dagmx wrote: post #182
akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.

I don't like the tabloids either but what exactly do you propose we do? Are you sure it's a good idea to undermine the freedom of the press?

A government with the power to censor the tabloids is also a government with the power to censor the news outlets that you do like. I'd be careful about opening that can of worms.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#203

Post by arrowsmith »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #154
akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

I suggest you keep an eye on what's being published in Private Eye and Computer Weekly if you have access to those where you are. They're holding feet to the fire on all these points. One thing I would say is that if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed. The problem is that in this case the Post Office had unique legal powers, and was being r…

> if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed.

Is this not the case in other countries?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#204

Post by jen20 »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

I suspect there's more to it in than that.

I'd wager there was a solid amount of general incompetence involved at the PO "corporate" - management politically couldn't admit that their consultingware could be anything other than perfect, because they signed off on the decision to buy it, and probably on all the work orders that got them to that point.

If anyone from PO management or that of the consulting firm (Fujitsu, I believe?) ever get any work again, it will be a travesty of justice.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#205

Post by arrowsmith »

noisy_boy wrote: post #86
rwmj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary (and getting that evidence is basically impossible for the individuals being charged who were post office workers, not computer experts, and the source code was a trade secret). This might change, partly in response to…

> The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary That is just mind bogglingly stupid - who the hell are the idiots who wrote a law like that? Any of them wrote a line of code in their life?

> who wrote a law

That's not what "common law" means.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#206

Post by octopoc »

marliechiller wrote: post #187
octopoc wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It assigns agency to the person who died. Think about it this way: I have relative who is vegan, so she has been trying to convince me to kill myself for many years now. I can still choose whether I do it though, and obviously I chose not to so far, although during COVID I didn’t have much other social interaction, so I nearly went through with it. I had agency throughout though. I’m not dead because I chose not to g…

whats veganism got to do with comitting suicide?

Many vegans think everyone else is evil/demonic for eating meat. “Meat is murder” etc etc. So the natural conclusion to that is, according to several vegans I know, that everyone who eats meat should be forced to either stop being a mass murderer or kill themselves.

Keep in mind there was a point where I was vegan, I know several vegans, so I know what I’m talking about.

They’re not shy about it either—look up That Vegan Teacher on YouTube for relatively middle-of-the-road vegan behavior in action.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#207

Post by rossant »

akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

Read about this [1, 2]. This is not yet a well-known scandal, but I expect (and hope) it will surface in the coming years or decade. It is on an even bigger scale, not limited to a single country, and it has been going on not just for 10 years but for many decades.

[1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#208

Post by arrowsmith »

whycome wrote: post #177
SCdF wrote: post #157

Effectively tortured to death. One of the things that frustrates me with how ethics is taught in computer science is that we use examples like Therac 25, and people listen in horror, then their takeaway is frequently "well thank god I don't work on medical equipment". The fact that it's medical equipment is a distraction. All software can cause harm to others. All of it. You need to care about all of it.

That’s why the “died by suicide” language can be problematic. These people were driven by several factors and they were left with no choice.

"Driven to suicide" may be more accurate. And damning.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#209

Post by nlitened »

nextos wrote: post #7

I have followed this scandal quite closely over the years, and these two quotations sum it up. Pretty sad: "The report alleges that even before the program was rolled out in 1999, some Fujitsu employees knew that Horizon could produce false data." "As the years went by the complaints grew louder and more persistent [...] Still the Post Office trenchantly resisted the contention that on occasions Horizon produced fals…

It would not surprise me if some developers at that time reported to journalists that they had a bug in their code, they'd go to jail for fabricating evidence, cybercrime, stealing of trade secrets, breaking an NDA, or something like that.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#210

Post by junon »

arrowsmith wrote: post #202
dagmx wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.

I don't like the tabloids either but what exactly do you propose we do? Are you sure it's a good idea to undermine the freedom of the press? A government with the power to censor the tabloids is also a government with the power to censor the news outlets that you do like. I'd be careful about opening that can of worms.

When tabloids circumvent due process to commit slander and get away with it there should be penalties, yes.
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