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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#161

Post by Joeboy »

louthy wrote: post #142
Joeboy wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point, I think, is that that The Post Office acted like part of the state, notably in that they acted like an unconstrained branch of the CPS in bringing prosecutions against thousands of people. > Maybe in some fringe circles I would say the fringe circles co-opted it over the last couple of decades, and the term's obviously become heavily associated with them in some people's minds (eg. yours). But it's an olde…

> The point, I think, is that that The Post Office acted like part of the state I agree. The are part of the state. They are a standalone company, but wholly owned by the state. But other aspects of the state (eventually) reacted to the injustice: MPs, select committees, ministers, the public inquiry, and hopefully next the legal system as some of these people should be in jail. > But it's an older term than that. Fi…

I think your struggle with shifting meanings is a worthwhile one. At least, if you said BB King was an R&B artist, and somebody tried to correct you, you'd be within your rights to stand your ground.

But particularly with regard to politics, I don't think you should let go of useful ideas because arseholes pollute them. At least, it feels uncomfortably like letting the arseholes win, to me.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#162

Post by akudha »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #154
akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

I suggest you keep an eye on what's being published in Private Eye and Computer Weekly if you have access to those where you are. They're holding feet to the fire on all these points. One thing I would say is that if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed. The problem is that in this case the Post Office had unique legal powers, and was being r…

Lets ignore everything else for a second. Isn't it common sense, common decency to ask how can thousands of postal workers become thieves overnight? We're talking about postal workers for fuck's sake, not a bunch of mafia dudes. Is there some kind of perverse incentive for the prosecutors to send as many people to jail as possible, guilty or not?

run by people who did not want to "harm the brand"

Oh well, now their precious brand has been harmed, how exactly do they expect to gain the trust, respect of the people back? Maybe they think the public will forget and move on? These people suck...

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#164

Post by renewiltord »

closewith wrote: post #124
nusaru wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the US Huh? What does this mean? Are there other systems in the US that I’m not aware of?

Yes, the indigenous domestic nations.

Indeed, and science can’t account for the wonders of indigenous ways of thinking either.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#165

Post by whycome »

akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

It's fucking nuts because it's worse than that too.

Fujitsu falsely claimed that they couldn't remotely modify data.

They used technical info to obfuscate things for the accused and the judges.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#166

Post by fifteen1506 »

mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

Surely the engineer wasn't acting alone, lying in court without some inside pressure?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#167

Post by ptero »

mrkramer wrote: post #40
cedws wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if software developers screw up Well, yes, they did screw up, but the fallout was amplified 100x by bad management.

"The Horizon IT system contained "hundreds" of bugs[0]." If your accounting software has hundreds of bugs then you are really in the deep shit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal#:~...

Every system has bugs, even deployed, high visibility accounting systems. Debian stable, which I personally view as the gold standard for a robust general purpose OS, has hundreds of bugs.

That is not to say that bugs are good. They are bad and should be squashed. But the Horizon failure, IMO, is with the management, that pretended that the system was bug free and, faced with the evidence to the contrary, put the blame on postmasters. My 2c.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#168

Post by slacktivism123 »

foldr wrote: post #78
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

> To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice “X died by suicide” is a sentence in the active voice. “Die” is an intransitive verb and cannot be passivized in English.

Please don't do this kind of tangential grammar nitpicking here. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#170

Post by whycome »

noisy_boy wrote: post #86
rwmj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary (and getting that evidence is basically impossible for the individuals being charged who were post office workers, not computer experts, and the source code was a trade secret). This might change, partly in response to…

> The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary That is just mind bogglingly stupid - who the hell are the idiots who wrote a law like that? Any of them wrote a line of code in their life?

Isn’t it a similar case in the USA where intoxication breath test computers are similarly obscured from scrutiny? People have argued that they have a right to “face their accuser” and see the source code only to have that request denied. So, black box.
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