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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#121

Post by some_random »

dcow wrote: post #108
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

It’s still suicide. The wrongfully imprisoned can be acquitted. That’s part of the argument against the death penalty: if justice is imperfect then don’t take actions that are permanent. You can’t classify every instance of miscarriage of justice as state murder. I really don’t see the issue you’re trying to raise. It’s more problematic to invent new language because it feels yucky than to be precise and accurate in…

I don't think they're arguing that the headline should be "13 UK postmasters murdered by the state", just that the extremely passive "died by suicide" lacks context and largely leaves out the UK Post Office's role in their death. I think they would prefer some thing along the lines of "At Least 13 People Killed Themselves After False Accusations From U.K. Post Office, Report Says".

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#122

Post by pcthrowaway »

tialaramex wrote: post #79
mrkramer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Horizon IT system contained "hundreds" of bugs[0]." If your accounting software has hundreds of bugs then you are really in the deep shit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal#:~...

So long as the jury understands this, it's all fine. If you're on trial for doing X and your jury is told by a prosecution witness "mrkramer did X" and under cross they admit that's based on computer records which are often bogus, inconsistent, total nonsense, it doesn't take the world's best defence lawyer to secure an "innocent" verdict. That's not a fun experience, but it probably won't drive you to suicide. One o…

> If you're on trial for doing X and your jury is told by a prosecution witness "mrkramer did X" and under cross they admit that's based on computer records which are often bogus, inconsistent, total nonsense, it doesn't take the world's best defence lawyer to secure an "innocent" verdict. That's not a fun experience, but it probably won't drive you to suicide.

I imagine digital records are involved in nearly every trial at this point. Good luck getting this point admitted by the justice system.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#123

Post by tialaramex »

zapzupnz wrote: post #73
mathiaspoint wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That mess inspired the American legal system though, which is probably one of if not the best in the world. IMO common law is still better than case law at least.

I’m curious to know how American legal system is better than any other country’s. From the outside looking in, it looks just as broken if not worse. You may have been kidding, but I’m sure someone will genuinely think so and have some decent arguments for it.

My favourite inspiration goes the opposite direction. The United States has this Supreme Court, a final Court of Appeal, politically independent and empowered even to decide that the government's actions are illegal. Sounds great.

The UK had this rather antique thing called the "Lords of Appeal in Ordinary" aka "Law Lords" who were in theory just some Lords (ie people who are arbitrarily in the upper chamber of the Parliament, maybe because their dad was) but served the same purpose as a final court of appeal in practice and so had for a very long time all been Judges because duh, of course they should be judges, that's a job for a judge, just make some judges Lords and forget about it. They met in some committee room in the Palace of Westminster, because they're Lords and that's where the Lords are, right? So, there was practical independence, but the appearance was not here.

About 15 years ago now, the dusty Law Lords were in the way of an attempted reform of parliament. A Supreme Court sounds like a good idea, so the UK got a Supreme Court. It fixed up a nice building nearby, gave the exact same people a new job title and sent them over the road. Done.

But the UK version does what it says on the tin. It said on the tin they're politically independent. In the US of course this "independence" is bullshit, but in the UK since there's already a politically independent process to pick judges the same process continues for the Supreme Court. So a Prime Minister might hate the supreme court but they can't pick the judges.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#124

Post by closewith »

nusaru wrote: post #88
closewith wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That mess inspired the American legal system though, which is probably one of if not the best in the world. Poe's Law strikes again. The American legal system isn't even the best legal system in the US.

> in the US Huh? What does this mean? Are there other systems in the US that I’m not aware of?

Yes, the indigenous domestic nations.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#125

Post by mystraline »

closewith wrote: post #37
mrkramer wrote: post #27

I thought British legal system and computer forensics were serious but this case is just a travesty of justice.

The British legal system is and always has been a litany of injustices dressed up in formal attire. To be avoided at all costs.

The stuffy 17th c clothes and powdered wigs were a warning that you are entering the Clown Zone (not the Twilight Zone).

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#126

Post by duncans »

mrkramer wrote: post #27

I thought British legal system and computer forensics were serious but this case is just a travesty of justice.

The thing here is that the Post Office as the "victim" could also act as its own investigator and prosecutor, due to historical reasons going back to the 17th century when it effectively functioned as part of the state and as such, had the authority to investigate and prosecute crimes related to its operations (like mail theft or fraud).

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#127

Post by some_random »

louthy wrote: post #98
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

> massive deep state cover-up Let’s not use conspiracy-theory language. It was a coverup by Fujitsu and The Post Office. MPs and ministers (part of the state) used their parliamentary privilege to expose it after the campaign by the postmasters brought the issue to light. No ‘deep state’ conspiracy, it’s just an arse covering cover-up (pared with outright incompetence) which had particularly devastating consequences.

I know the term "deep state" is now extremely political and you've only heard it in the context of conspiracy theorists but it's a real term that is completely appropriate here.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#128

Post by mrkramer »

foldr wrote: post #116
blibble wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because UK law says (said?) the computer can't be wrong and the post office management had no interest in proving otherwise they should be going after the management

UK law said that there was a presumption that computer systems were working correctly unless there was evidence to the contrary. That’s not inherently nuts. It makes roughly as much sense as assuming that, say, a dishwasher is in working order unless there’s evidence to the contrary. This presumption in and of itself could just as well aid a person’s defense as hinder it (e.g. if they have an alibi based on computer…

>UK law said that there was a presumption that computer systems were working correctly unless there was evidence to the contrary.

Defense had to prove that only one Horizon/Fujitsu accounting software was buggy and the whole prosecution falls apart e.g. If John's Horizon/Fujitsu accounting software has bugs then Peter's Horizon/Fujitsu accounting software most probably has bugs too.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#129

Post by some_random »

SirFatty wrote: post #66
RandomBacon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> odd take It's not odd when the sentiment is widespread, for example, look at the other comments in this thread that talk about it.

Oh, well if everyone else is parroting it, then it must be correct.

You should probably just state what your opinion on it is, instead of bouncing between different complaints.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#130

Post by vintermann »

dcow wrote: post #108
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

It’s still suicide. The wrongfully imprisoned can be acquitted. That’s part of the argument against the death penalty: if justice is imperfect then don’t take actions that are permanent. You can’t classify every instance of miscarriage of justice as state murder. I really don’t see the issue you’re trying to raise. It’s more problematic to invent new language because it feels yucky than to be precise and accurate in…

> You can’t classify every instance of miscarriage of justice as state murder.

It's literally what we call it in Norway. In English it's compared to miscarriage (i.e. spontaneous abortion), "miscarriage of justice". Here we call it murder of justice (justismord), whether anyone actually died or not.

I do think it gets the seriousness across, and the focus on it as a deliberate act, rather than an accident as in English. Some people actually made a deliberate act to let innocent people take the blame.

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