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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#101

Post by CivBase »

SirFatty wrote: post #16
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

"The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. " That's a really odd take.

For what it's worth, I agree. It never crossed my mind that the phrasing could lead anyone to believe the suicides were "unavoidable" or an "act of God", especially when the title clearly ties the suicides to a causation.

The phrasing could be made more accusatory, but I don't think that's inherently better.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#102

Post by blibble »

mrkramer wrote: post #65
voxic11 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Post Office management knew about the bugs but didn't want to take the blame for the accounting issues they caused (since it was management that purchased and approved the software some blame would have fallen on them).

Fujitsu was all to blame, after all they created and maintained the software. It just blows my mind why would courts pursue the individuals and not the creator of the software, when they realized that this mess was widespread and not isolated.

because UK law says (said?) the computer can't be wrong

and the post office management had no interest in proving otherwise

they should be going after the management

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#103

Post by tweetle_beetle »

lanfeust6 wrote: post #77
xbryanx wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> please don't say they died by suicide I encourage you to read the current thinking on this evolving language, which offers some explanation as to why we're moving away from damaging language like "committing" suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_terminology#%22Committ... https://www.iasp.info/languageguidelines/

"damaging", in no quantifiable way whatsoever. It's just the euphemism treadmill at work, nothing more.

I would say it's not the treadmill at work in this case. It's not simply a replacement.

The article linked by the parent comment explains it well and references plenty of considered material. But the tldr is that committing suicide aligns with an active criminal/immoral act, while dying by suicide is a factual cause of death with many possible causes.

Consider how people would like your death, or the death of a loved one, described by others. And if you can't, maybe consider how others might be affected.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#104

Post by Joeboy »

louthy wrote: post #98
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

> massive deep state cover-up Let’s not use conspiracy-theory language. It was a coverup by Fujitsu and The Post Office. MPs and ministers (part of the state) used their parliamentary privilege to expose it after the campaign by the postmasters brought the issue to light. No ‘deep state’ conspiracy, it’s just an arse covering cover-up (pared with outright incompetence) which had particularly devastating consequences.

"Deep state" is, or at least to be, a perfectly respectable political term for bodies that retain power across changing governments.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#105

Post by watwut »

mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

> please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened.

I mean, common. Everyone knows what suicide is or means. No, it does not make it sound like an act of God for anyone who is above A1 level of English.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#106

Post by albedoa »

nirui wrote: post #83
mrkramer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Horizon IT system contained "hundreds" of bugs[0]." If your accounting software has hundreds of bugs then you are really in the deep shit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal#:~...

[flagged]

This is not at all what happened or what anyone suggested, yikes.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#107

Post by cjs_ac »

bendigedig wrote: post #46
cjs_ac wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This trend for commenting on news articles with nothing to say but a complaint about the wording of the headline is tedious. The right to free speech does not impose a responsibility to say something about everything you see.

I think you're missing the point by a mile. The point isn't some tedious debate over grammar; it's about the choice of language that perpetuates the idea that suicide is a tragedy that happens passively 'to people' in some kind of tragic, medicalised, incomprehensible way which is severed from any socio-political context. In this case, these people were driven to suicide. I would argue that those responsible for the…

It's a headline. It's not supposed to convey any nuance, it's just there to encourage you to read the article.

I agree that the wording isn't ideal, and I agree that the headline fails to capture the nuance of the circumstances that lead to suicide, but I disagree that subeditors who write headlines need to encapsulate that nuance. That's what the article is for.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#108

Post by dcow »

mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

It’s still suicide. The wrongfully imprisoned can be acquitted. That’s part of the argument against the death penalty: if justice is imperfect then don’t take actions that are permanent. You can’t classify every instance of miscarriage of justice as state murder. I really don’t see the issue you’re trying to raise. It’s more problematic to invent new language because it feels yucky than to be precise and accurate in our reporting.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#109

Post by PaulKeeble »

mannykannot wrote: post #54
mike_hearn wrote: post #8

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

While there is no real doubt that most, if not all, of these suicides were a direct consequence of the appalling way this monumental failure and its investigation was handled, reporting the news responsibly has become a minefield in which any deviation from what is strictly known is liable to be exploited by those who do not want their role in events to become public. As you want to call a spade a spade, can we agree…

No question, they should be tried for corporate manslaughter and criminal enterprise for the cover up along with all their management. They should all be serving very long sentences, they killed many people with their lies.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#110

Post by louthy »

Joeboy wrote: post #104
louthy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> massive deep state cover-up Let’s not use conspiracy-theory language. It was a coverup by Fujitsu and The Post Office. MPs and ministers (part of the state) used their parliamentary privilege to expose it after the campaign by the postmasters brought the issue to light. No ‘deep state’ conspiracy, it’s just an arse covering cover-up (pared with outright incompetence) which had particularly devastating consequences.

"Deep state" is, or at least to be, a perfectly respectable political term for bodies that retain power across changing governments.

Or in other words: the state. No ‘deep’ needed unless you’re trying to be emotive. Fujitsu is not part of the state and although the Post Office is owned by the state, it’s a stand-alone company.

> “Perfectly respectable”

Maybe in some fringe circles, but this term is certainly attached to a huge amount extreme propaganda and conspiracy that attempts to undermine western democracy and institutions.

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