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AI coding tools can reduce productivity

secondthoughts.ai

131–140 of 284 posts

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#131

As others probably have experienced, I can only add that I am doing coding now I would have kicked down the road if I did not have LLM assistance. Example: using LeafletJS — not hard, but I didn't want to have to search all over to figure out how to use it. Example: other web page development requiring dropping image files, complicated scrolling, split-views, etc. In short, there are projects I have put off in the pa…

> search all over to figure out how to use it.

Leaflet doc is single page document with examples you can copy-paste. There is page navogation at the top. Also ctrl/cmd+f and keyword seems quicker than writing the prompt.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#132
I finally took the plunge and did a big chunk of work in Cursor. It was pretty ideal: greenfield but with a very relevant example to slightly modify (the example pulled events over HTTP as a server and I wanted it to pull events over Google pub/sub instead).

Over IDK, 2-3 hours I got something that seemed on its face to work, but:

- it didn't use the pub/sub API correctly

- the 1 low-coverage test it generated didn't even compile (Go)

- there were a bunch of small errors it got confused by--particularly around closures

I got it to "90%" (again though it didn't at all work) with the first prompt, and then over something like a dozen more mostly got it to fix its own errors. But:

- I didn't know the pub/sub API--I was relying on Cursor to do this correctly--and it totally submarined me

- I had to do all the digging to get the test to compile

- I had to go line by line and tell it to rewrite... almost everything

I quit when I realized I was spending more time prompting it to fix things than it would take me to fully engage my brain and fix them myself. I also noticed that there was a strong pull to "just do one more prompt" rather than dig in and actually understand things. That's super problematic to me.

Worse, this wasn't actually faster. How do I know that? The next day I did what I normally do: read docs and wrote it myself. I spent less time (I'm a fast typist and a Vim user) overall, and my code works. My experience matches pretty well w/ the results of TFA.

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Something I will say though is there is a lot of garbage stuff in tech. Like, I don't want to learn Terraform (again) just to figure out how to deploy things to production w/o paying a Heroku-like premium. Maybe I don't want to look up recursive CTEs again, or C function pointers, or spent 2 weeks researching a heisenbug I put into code for some silly reason AI would have caught immediately. I am _confident_ we can solve these things without boiling oceans to get AI to do it for us.

But all this shit about how "I'm 20x more productive" is totally absurd. The only evidence we have of this is people just saying it. I don't think a 20x productivity increase is even imaginable. Overall productivity since 1950 is up 3.6x [0]. These people are asking us to believe they've achieved over 400 years of productivity gains in "3 months". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. My guess is either you were extremely unproductive before, or (like others are saying in the threads) in very small ways you're 20x more productive but most things are unaffected or even slower.

[0]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OPHNFB

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#133
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about the $ you make? isn't that an indicator? you've probably made more than me, so you are more successful while both of us might be doing the same thing.

It is from a certain point of view. For example at a national level productivity is measured in GDP per hour worked. Even this is problematic - it means you increase productivity by reducing working hours or making low paid workers unemployed. ON the other hand it makes no sense from some points of view. For example, if you get a pay rise that does not mean you are more productive.

Yeah it only works at a very high level, but from there it's a pretty good measure. Like it's basically "what are the values of the inputs vs. the outputs", which is dead simple. At any lower level there are lots of confounding variables you have to contend with.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#134
post #34
post #16

What bothers me more than any of this particular discussion is that we seem to be incapable of determining programmer productivity in a meaningful way since my debut as a programmer 40 years ago.

what about the $ you make? isn't that an indicator? you've probably made more than me, so you are more successful while both of us might be doing the same thing.

Another metric could be time. Do people work less hours?

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#135
post #57

I've been using Claude Code heavily for about 3 months now, and I'm pretty sure I'm between 10 and 20 times more productive while using it. How I measure performance is how many features I can implement in a given period of time. It's nice that people have done studies and have opinions, but for me, it's 10x to 20x better.

Have any open source work you can show off?

Not the OP, but:

https://repo.autonoma.ca/notanexus.git

I don't know the PDF.js library. Writing both the client- and server-side for a PDF annotation editor would have taken 60 hours, maybe more. Instead, a combination Copilot, DeepSeek, Claude, and Gemini yielded a working prototype in under 6 hours:

https://repo.autonoma.ca/notanexus.git/tree/HEAD/src/js

I wrote maybe 3 lines of JavaScript, the rest was all prompted.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#136
The more I used it, the easier it became to skip over things I should have thought through myself. But looking back, the results weren’t always faster or better. Now I prefer to treat AI as a kind of challenger. It helps reveal the parts I haven't truly understood, rather than just speeding things up.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#137

Now do a study that specifically gauges how useful an LLM (including smart tab completion) is for a frontend dev working in react/next/tailwind on everyday Jira tickets. These were maintainers of large open source projects. It's all relative. It's clearly providing massive gains for some and not as much for others. It should follow that it's benefit to you depends on who you are and what you are working on. It isn't…

React and tailwind already made lot of tradeoffs to make it more ergonomic for developers. One would expect that LLMs could unlock lean and faster stack instead.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#138
post #73
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly my experience from using AI to code (primarily claude sonnet) is that that "extra 47%" is probably itself mostly tech debt. Places where the AI repeated itself instead of using a loop. Places where the AI wrote tests that don't actually test anything. Places where the AI failed to produce a simple abstraction and instead just kept doing the same thing by hand. Etc. AI isn't very good at being concise, in my…

Your response implies the ai produced code was landed without review. That’s a possible outcome but I would hope it’s unlikely to account for the whole group at this scale. We’re of course still lacking data.

I have two responses to the "code review fixes these problems" argument.

One: The work to get code to a reviewable point is significant. Skipping it, either with or without AI, is just going to elongate the review process.

Two: The whole point of using AI is to outsource the thought to a machine that can think much faster than you can in order to ship faster. If the normal dev process was 6 hours to write and 2 hours to review, and the AI dev process was 1 hour to write and 8 hours to review, the author will say "hey why is review taking so long; this defeats the purpose". You can't say "code review fixes these problems" and then bristle at the necessary extra review.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are understanding how big 10x and 20x are. It means you can replace a whole team of developers alone. I can believe that some tasks are speed up by 10x or even 20x, but I find very hard to believe it's the average of your productivity (maintaining good code quality)

I mean from a time perspective, your mileage may vary. So me finishing a carded up block of work that is expected to take 2 weeks (80 hours) and I get it done in 1 day (8 hours) then that would be a 10x boost. There are always tar pits of time where you are no better off with AI, but sometimes it's 20x. I've setup development teams in the past, and have have been coding since the late 70's, so I am sort of aware of m…

This is satire, right? You're 60ish years old, and hyper optimistic about AI, it's making you tens of times more productive, paste code from one AI to another, one is the dev and the other is the architect...

I mean, it's literally unbelievable.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet with a co-worker that a migration from angular 15 to angular 19 could be done really fast avoiding months. I spent a whole evening on it and Claude code have never been able to pull off a migration from 15 to 16 on its own. A total waste of time and nothing worked. I had the surprise that it cost me 275$ for nothing. So maybe for greenfield projects it’s smooth and saves time but it’s not a silver bullet on pro…

I've had a lot of issues with Claude and web development. I ended up asking it how it wanted to work and would an 'AdminKit Template' work to get things moving. It recommended AdminKit and that was a good move. For me, custom UI's aren't a big part of the solution, I just need web pages to manage CRUD endpoints to manage the product. AdminKit has been a good fit so far, but it was a fresh start, no migration.

You asked Claude if AdminKit would work and in answer it recommended AdminKit? Seriously? Wow, what an unexpected turn of events. I am flabbergasted.
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