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Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com

101–107 of 107 posts

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#101
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now? Helping out country men from the north east, and surviving the daily tribulations of India with stoicism, and the ability to be open to all castes, creeds and colors The discussion started from a post talking about Indian heritage , and the things which you listed(substitute people from north east with just people ) are basic qualities expected in a decent human being - there is nothing uniquely Indian o…

1) are basic qualities expected in a decent human being - there is nothing uniquely Indian or heritage about it. Yes exactly my point. Were you expecting rocket science? The best parts of heritage come from doing the right thing. And doing the right thing is often hard and stark. Today is one of those junctures. Heritage is not just historic, its being built right now. Your heritage today includes a grand ability to…

> Yes exactly my point. Were you expecting rocket science?

I was expecting a logically sound, coherent response - not straw-man appealing to mysticism.

My original question was I am having a tough time figuring out what is this Indian heritage, and I don't see which part of me comes from Indian heritage, and not from being a decent(or indecent) human being and common sense. The answer is none. It was as simple as that.

> Your heritage today includes a grand ability to argue, and to mistake articulation for action. You didn't come across as someone who wanted to leave it at that.

"grand ability to argue"

"mistake articulation for action"

Take a breath.

If you don't want to discuss(or argue as you put it), don't throw around bullshit on public forums. More importantly, don't add more bullshit on existing pile(mistake articulation for action? Where the fuck that came from?)

> I am glad you have those answers, but those are your personal answers.

Never claimed otherwise.

> I am not providing authority, I am providing history. You had a question, you got an answer.

No, I don't have an answer to my question that "I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly is my Indian heritage". For the nth time, when you specifically label something as "Indian heritage", it has to be specifically Indian and inherited, not something which is common among people worldwide.

> If you want your answer to be something else, well read through Indian history.

Now what on earth would that mean? If I want my answer to be different, read History? And get the fuck off your high horse. Reading a couple of books and assuming other people don't know about Indian history isn't a commendable quality.

> Your final para is about having normal standards to deal with people. Its a great system, stick to it. But again, your question was about heritage not common sense behavior.

Please stop intentionally misrepresenting my question and your answers. In response to what the hell is Indian heritage question, you had a blurb about helping north-eastern folks, to which I said is a common sense behavior and not some distinctly Indian heritage.

> I am pointing out as well, that the way that melting pot was bound together was often through mysticism.

If you are just going to throw claims around, have some citations for what is your mysticism and how it binds India. And no, "read history" doesn't cut it - cite me particular instances and occurrences. India isn't and was never bound(if it is bound at all) by religion.

EDIT: And if it's still too hard for you to comprehend why I was pointing out India is a diverse country, my purpose was to establish there is no "Indian heritage/culture/tradition/whatever". India is gigantic and diverse, and there isn't a common pattern significant enough to warrant a mention. When different parts of India has significantly different culture and tradition on macro(north-south) and micro(tamil brahmins and non-brahmins, castes within the same religion), Indian culture means nothing, and that is a good thing. Same goes for Indian heritage.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#102
post #96
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you manage to achieve that - instantly stand out on the streets of Bangalore as distinctly "NRI" ? Is it the clothes? Or something else? Please elaborate. Becasue I met a nice person in Costa Coffee a few days back and after chatting for some time he revealed he was an NRI here for some falimy affair. He went to UK when he was 15 (he looked 25-30). To me at least he didn't stand out like an NRI. Neither his la…

> How do you manage to achieve that - instantly stand out on the streets of Bangalore as distinctly "NRI"? Now I will throw a claim which I am not going to back - I would like the other side to back theirs. It is impossible to stand out as NRI, let alone distinctly NRI. There is nothing in your clothes or hairstyle that marks you as such - it's in your mind. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but all I have got til…

Hint: HackerNews and streets of Bangalore (refer original comment) are two entirely different platforms and mind readers were not aplenty on streets of Bangalore the last time I checked.

Now, please do not say he meant once I start about the clean lanes of USA talking to someone on streets of Bangalore then I instantly stand out.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. Even that is interesting. It shows us that bureaucracy (and, I'd say, failure to respect one's property rights) can become indistinguishable from a police state.

I'll just leave this here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial

Also:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#104
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) are basic qualities expected in a decent human being - there is nothing uniquely Indian or heritage about it. Yes exactly my point. Were you expecting rocket science? The best parts of heritage come from doing the right thing. And doing the right thing is often hard and stark. Today is one of those junctures. Heritage is not just historic, its being built right now. Your heritage today includes a grand ability to…

> Yes exactly my point. Were you expecting rocket science? I was expecting a logically sound, coherent response - not straw-man appealing to mysticism. My original question was I am having a tough time figuring out what is this Indian heritage, and I don't see which part of me comes from Indian heritage, and not from being a decent(or indecent) human being and common sense. The answer is none. It was as simple as tha…

Do a quick search on mistaking articulation for action, it should be helpful. The first I heard it from was a diplomat, Swiss I believe. The top search result is from Sir Swan, the gent who reached both poles.

So that's where it came from.

It very justly describes the majority of India.

I used to use the India is too big and diverse argument myself.

Yes India is diverse, yes for every x it's opposite x' also exists.

I use it where relevant even today. Unfortunately with time comes change, and that theory which I thought was unassailable, I can now see nuances in.

Anyway, it seems we are speaking past each other. I wish you well.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#105
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes exactly my point. Were you expecting rocket science? I was expecting a logically sound, coherent response - not straw-man appealing to mysticism. My original question was I am having a tough time figuring out what is this Indian heritage, and I don't see which part of me comes from Indian heritage, and not from being a decent(or indecent) human being and common sense. The answer is none. It was as simple as tha…

Do a quick search on mistaking articulation for action, it should be helpful. The first I heard it from was a diplomat, Swiss I believe. The top search result is from Sir Swan, the gent who reached both poles. So that's where it came from. It very justly describes the majority of India. I used to use the India is too big and diverse argument myself. Yes India is diverse, yes for every x it's opposite x' also exists.…

> Do a quick search on mistaking articulation for action, it should be helpful. The first I heard it from was a diplomat, Swiss I believe. The top search result is from Sir Swan, the gent who reached both poles. So that's where it came from.

I don't know how and why you got the idea I couldn't understand an English phrase consisting of 3 simple words which are most probably part of a 5th grader's vocabulary.

If you find "mistaking articulation for action" thought provoking and profound, good for you. To each his own; many people find "early to bed, early to rise" or "time is money" profound as well. The good thing is I don't have to pretend I don't find it inane and obvious. I did a google search just in case it has some interesting back story like "Keep calm, carry on" - I didn't find anything.

When I said "where did it come from", I meant why are you throwing this at me. Did I say by posting on HN I am changing India? It's like you randomly wanted to use some phrase you heard somewhere and posted it in the reply.

> Unfortunately with time comes change, and that theory which I thought was unassailable, I can now see nuances in.

We are well past discussion, but your personal perception change doesn't mean India has changed - it's still diverse and averse to generalizations. If it were uniform, that would have been fine with me. But it isn't, and any attempts to make it look so, or actually make it so(the horror) are just wrong.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#106
SAD but True Factis that the Government is the Biggest Mafia in India.Bureaucracy Feeds and Chain of Bribery The whole idea of both Government and the Bureaucracy is to prove that any common man has to be common without basic privileges of questioning any action of the government and bureaucracy.Fairness has vanished from system, and has replaced by MONEY TALKS XXXX XXIT WALKS, not only walks but flies.Accountability to commonman is unheard off. Here the underlying priciple of both the Government and bureaucracy is to make laws to cripple common man and extort money.EARLIER IT WAS ONLY THE CORRUPTION,BUT NOW,VERY VERY SAD THAT INHUMANITY is in the Blood stream of Indians. Government Talks about subsidies as way of helping common man, but ultimately it has created a subsidy mafia, in every sphere. ACTS LIKE RTI AND SOME STATES BILLS OF RIGHT OF CITIZENS SERVICES ARE SIMPLY BEING IGNORED BY BURECRACY , THEY DO NOT ANSWER TO MAILS OF COMMON MAN.I AM YET TO FIND A BUREAUCRAT BEING PUNISHED FOR DENIAL OF SERVICE TO TAX PAYING CITIZEN BUT ON THE CONTRARY THEY GET PROMOTED .LOOK AT THESE KINDS OF MESSAGES BEING PASSED ON TO GENERAL PUBLIC, DARE NOT TOUCH US GOVERNMENT AND BUREACRACY .FORGET TOUCHING YOU GLARE AT US YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why didn't your employer get it done for you? If it was a big firm then they'd have someone who knows their way around the system to get things like this done efficiently.

First, he never said it was a big firm, second, I don't see how your comment is at all relevant (aside from being tremendous fodder for cynics).

Hmm, I don't think I was trying to attack his position as much as posing a question. Any company that wants to hire a foreigner thinks about the ease with which they can be brought on board. Companies that are used to doing so in India tend to have people that can navigate the system so the employees-to-be don't have to.
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